In this episode of The Geek in Review podcast, hosts Greg Lambert and Kate Boyd from Sente Advisors (standing in for Marlene Gebauer) sit down with Giles Thompson, Head of Growth, and Jun Choi, Growth Executive at Avvoka, to discuss the company’s innovative approach to document automation and the impact of generative AI on the legal industry.

Avvoka is a no-code document automation platform that enables legal professionals to streamline the creation and management of complex legal documents and contracts. The company has recently introduced AI-enhanced features such as SmartAutomation (with GenAI) and SmartConsolidation , which aim to simplify the process of building automations.

Giles and Jun highlight the differences in knowledge management practices between the US and UK, with the former being more technology-focused and the latter being more human-centric. Avvoka’s platform caters to both law firms and in-house legal teams, with clients ranging from Warner Brothers Discovery and McDonald’s to booking.com.

The company also hosts a vendor-agnostic community event series called “Logically Drafted,” which bring together legal professionals interested in document automation to share their experiences and insights. These events have gained traction globally, with upcoming sessions planned for Houston (Tuesday 18 June) and Chicago (Friday 21 June), and other cities.

Looking ahead, Avvoka is focusing on integrating generative AI technologies into its platform while ensuring data security and client control. The company is collaborating with clients to provide flexibility in terms of hosting and integrating large language models, allowing them to maintain control over their data and manage risks associated with these emerging technologies.

Giles and Jun emphasize the importance of being realistic about the capabilities and limitations of generative AI in the legal industry. They believe that document automation will continue to play a crucial role, with AI serving as an enhancement rather than a replacement for existing tools and processes. The key challenge for vendors like Avvoka will be to navigate the hype surrounding generative AI while delivering practical, value-driven solutions to their clients.

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Transcript

Continue Reading Avvoka’s Innovative Approach to Document Automation and the Impact of Generative AI – Giles Thompson and Jun Choi

Reflections on the Stanford HAI Report on Legal AI Research Tools

The updated paper from the Stanford HAI team presents rigorous and insightful research into the performance of generative AI tools for legal research. The complexity of legal research is well-acknowledged, and this study looks into the capabilities and limitations of AI-driven legal research tools like Lexis+ AI and Westlaw AI-Assisted Research.

Stanford and Unclean Hands

This is Stanford Human-Centered Artificial Intelligence (HAI) team’s second bite at this apple. The first version of this report was criticized by me and others for using Thomson Reuters’ Practical Law AI tool as a legal research tool instead of using Westlaw Precision AI (which they call Westlaw AI-AR in their report.) In the follow up report, and in the blog post and on LinkedIn posts, authors of the report made it sound like Thomson Reuters had some nefarious reason for this. In reality, TR had not released the AI tool to any academic institutions, not just the Stanford group.

In the original report, this should have been posted up front and center on the paper, instead it was finally mentioned on page 9. It appears to me that Stanford HAI released the initial report in an attempt to pressure TR to give them access, which did work. However, this type of maneuver from Stanford HAI may have repercussions on whether the legal industry gives them a second chance to take this report seriously. We expect a high degree of ethics from prestigious instructions like Stanford, and in my opinion, this team of researchers did not meet those expectations in the initial report.

Challenges in Legal Research

Legal research is inherently challenging due to the intricate and nuanced nature of legal language and the vast array of case law, statutes, and regulations that must be navigated. The Stanford researchers designed their study with prompts that often included false statements or were worded in ways that tested the AI tools’ ability to understand legal complexities. This approach, while insightful, introduces a certain bias aimed at identifying the tools’ vulnerabilities. I would not say that they cherry-picked the results for the paper, but that the questions posed were designed to challenge the systems they were testing. This is not a bad thing, just something to consider when reading the report.

AI Tools: Strengths and Weaknesses

One of the primary advantages and disadvantages of legal research generative AI tools is their attempt to provide direct answers to user prompts. Traditional legal research tools like Westlaw and Lexis previously operated by presenting users with a list of relevant cases, statutes, and regulations based on Boolean or natural language searches. The shift to AI-generated responses aims to streamline this process but comes with its own set of challenges.

For instance, Westlaw’s Precision AI (Westlaw AI-AR) often produces lengthy answers, which can be a double-edged sword. While these detailed responses can be informative, they also increase the risk of including inaccuracies or “hallucinations.” The study highlights that these AI tools sometimes produce errors, raising questions about the effectiveness of their initial vector search compared to traditional Boolean and natural language searches. The researchers gave the results a Correct/Incorrect/Refusal score. To be correct, the AI generated answer had to be 100% correct. Any inaccurate information automatically resulted in an incorrect score. If the results had five points of reasoning, and only one of those was factually incorrect or hallucinated, the entire question was ruled incorrect. Something else to keep in mind when looking at the statistics.

Comparing AI and Traditional Searches

A key point of interest is how AI search results for statutes, regulations, and cases compare with traditional search methods. The study suggests that while the AI tools’ vector search technology is promising in retrieving relevant documents, the accuracy of the AI-generated responses is still a concern. Users must still verify the AI’s answers against the actual documents, much like traditional legal research. As my friend Tony Thai from Hyperdraft would jokingly say, “I mean we could just do the regular research and I don’t know…READ like we are paid to do.”

The Role of Vendors and the Future of Legal AI

Vendors like Westlaw and Lexis need to take this report seriously. The previous version of the study had its limitations, but the updated report addresses many of these deficiencies, providing a more comprehensive evaluation of the AI tools. While vendors may point out that the study is based on earlier versions of their products, the fundamental issues highlighted remain relevant.

The legal community has not abandoned these AI tools despite their flaws, primarily due to the decades of goodwill these vendors have built. The industry understands that this technology is still in its infancy. With the exception of CoCounsel, which was not directly evaluated in this study, these products have not reached their first birthday yet. This is very new technology which vendors and customers are wanting to get released quickly, and fix issues along the way. Vendors have the opportunity to engage in honest conversations with their customers about how they plan to improve these tools and reduce hallucinations. Vendors need to respect the customers and be forthcoming with issues they are working to correct. Creative advertising may create some short-term wins but may damage long-term relationships. Vendors are bending themselves into pretzels to advertise some version of “hallucination-free” on websites and marketing media when everyone knows that hallucinations in Generative AI tools is a feature, not a bug.

RAG as a Stop-Gap Measure

The study underscores that Retrieval-Augmented Generation (RAG) is a temporary solution. Something I have discussed with the vendors for a while now. For generative AI tools to truly excel, users need more sophisticated ways to manipulate their searches, refine retrieval processes, and interact with the AI. Currently, the system is basic and limited, but there is optimism that it will improve with time and consumer pressure. RAG is one of the first steps toward improving AI generated results for legal research, not the last.

Personal Reflections and Industry Implications

Reflecting on the broader implications, it is clear that the AI tools in their current form are not yet replacements for thorough, human-conducted legal research. The tools offer significant promise but must evolve to become more reliable and versatile. Legal professionals must remain vigilant in verifying AI-generated outputs and continue to advocate for advancements that will make these tools more robust and dependable. We are right in the middle of the Trough of Disillusionment on the Gartner Hype Cycle. This means that customers are expecting solid results, and while there is this unusual honeymoon with the legal industry when it comes to forgiving AI tools for hallucinations, this honeymoon will not last much longer. Lawyers are notorious for trying a product once, and if it works, they stick with it, and if it doesn’t, it may be months or years before they are willing to try it again. We are almost at that point in the industry with Generative AI tools that don’t reach their advertised abilities.

While the Stanford HAI report sheds light on the current state of legal AI research tools, it also provides a roadmap for future improvements. The legal community must work collaboratively with vendors to refine these Generative AI technologies, ensuring they become valuable assets in the practice of law.

In this episode of The Geek in Review, hosts Greg Lambert and Marlene Gebauer, along with special co-host Toby Brown of DV8 Legal Strategies, discuss the subscription-based legal services model with Mathew Kerbis, founder of Subscription Attorney, LLC, and Jack Shelton, co-founder of Aegis Space Law. The guests share their experiences and insights on adopting a subscription-based model as an alternative to the traditional billable hour.

Mathew Kerbis explains that his inspiration for transitioning to a subscription and flat fee model stemmed from the realization that many attorneys, including himself, could not afford their own billable rates. He emphasizes the importance of automating processes and leveraging technology to manage workflow and client needs efficiently, especially when offering lower-priced services.

Jack Shelton, whose firm focuses on the commercial space industry, shares his motivation for adopting a subscription model. He highlights the benefits of predictability and cost transparency for clients, particularly startups and small to medium-sized businesses. Shelton also discusses the development of in-house software to streamline complex analyses and improve accuracy and record-keeping for clients.

The guests explore the challenges and opportunities of scaling and sustaining a subscription-based model. Kerbis notes that the model is highly sustainable due to the predictability of monthly recurring revenue, while Shelton emphasizes the importance of refining processes and forms to ensure efficiency and effectiveness.

Looking to the future, Kerbis predicts that the rapid advancement of AI and the changing nature of legal practice will lead to a significant shift in the industry within the next five years. He suggests that if big law firms do not adapt, there may be a mass exodus of young associates seeking better work-life balance and the opportunity to start their own practices. Shelton, while agreeing with Kerbis to an extent, remains cautious about predicting a flood of lawyers leaving big law due to their risk-averse nature.

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Music: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Jerry David DeCicca⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Transcript

Continue Reading Exploring the Subscription-Based Legal Services Model with Mathew Kerbis and Jack Shelton

In this special episode of The Geek in Review, host Greg Lambert sits down with Ed Walters, Chief Strategy Officer at vLex, to discuss two significant announcements: the integration of vLex’s Vincent AI with iManage Work and the automated docket ingestion feature with iManage using vLex’s Docket Alarm.

The integration between Vincent AI and iManage’s Insight Plus collection allows law firms to leverage their internal knowledge assets alongside vLex’s extensive public law database. This combination of the “two halves of the legal brain” enables lawyers to create brilliant first drafts and analyze documents using the power of generative AI. Walters emphasizes the importance of data quality and the role of knowledge management teams in curating the best practice documents for training AI models.

Security is a top priority for both vLex and iManage in this integration. Walters details the various measures taken to ensure data protection, including encryption, dedicated master keys for each firm, and compliance with industry standards such as ISO 27001 and SOC 2. He also clarifies that vLex uses retrieval-augmented generation, securely passing relevant documents to a closed instance of the foundation model without training on the data itself.

The second announcement focuses on the automated docket ingestion feature, which seamlessly saves court filings from Docket Alarm into the correct iManage folders. This practical solution eliminates the manual process of saving documents and ensures that all team members have access to the most up-to-date versions of the filings.

Looking ahead, Walters hints at future integration points between vLex and iManage, emphasizing the potential for generative AI to help law firms differentiate their services and meet client expectations. He sees Vincent AI as a secure bridge between generative AI and a firm’s internal work product, enabling them to leverage their knowledge assets without the need for expensive, in-house foundation models.

 

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https://youtu.be/uDHXq8UT1UU

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Music: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Jerry David DeCicca⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

 Transcript

Continue Reading vLex Integrates Vincent AI with iManage and Automates Docket Ingestion with Docket Alarm

In this impromptu episode of The Geek in Review, hosts Marlene Gebauer and Greg Lambert reconnect after being on the road for a few weeks. They discuss their recent “Love and LegalTech” mini-series, which featured eight couples sharing their experiences working in the legal technology industry. The series provided insights into communication, work-life integration, and the passion for innovation shared by the guests. 

The conversation then shifts to a recent webinar by Toby Brown and Ian Wilson, where they discussed the potential impact of AI tools on law firm hours and profits. While the idea of AI reducing billable hours may seem controversial, the hosts agree that firms must adopt these tools to remain competitive. They also touch on the importance of aligning innovation with practice groups and the need for subject matter experts and people with strong interpersonal skills to drive change management.

Greg demonstrates an example of agentic AI using a tool called Crew AI. He sets up a task to search for information on a company called Take 5 Oil Change, using multiple AI agents to gather, synthesize, and report the findings. The process involves using SERPER, a Google search agent, an AI agent (Anthropic Claude), and a reporting agent. The output includes a log of the actions taken and a one-page report on the company, its leadership, and industry classification.

The hosts discuss the potential applications of agentic AI, such as quickly gathering information for client pitches or identifying legal issues. They also explore the possibility of running AI agents within secure cloud environments to address data privacy concerns. While the concept of agentic AI is still evolving, the hosts believe there is significant potential for these tools to streamline processes and enhance efficiency in the legal industry.

The episode concludes with a lighthearted mention of Greg’s AI-generated song created by UDIO about checking conflicts before going on vacation, showcasing the creative possibilities of AI tools in the legal profession.

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Music: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Jerry David DeCicca⁠⁠⁠⁠

Transcript

Continue Reading Catching Up on AI Agents, and Agentic Processes

In this special “Love and Legal Tech” episode of The Geek in Review podcast, host Greg Lambert sits down with Alexis Hayman, Director of Business Development at Consilio, and Jeff Niemczura, Discovery Attorney at Google, to discuss their unique journey as a couple working in the legal technology industry.

Alexis and Jeff first met in Cleveland, Ohio, while Jeff was a graduate student and Alexis was an undergrad. Their paths diverged as they pursued different careers – Jeff initially considering a PhD in religion and Alexis exploring art history. However, life had other plans, and they both found themselves drawn to the legal profession. Jeff stumbled into law school and graduated into the Great Recession, which led him to become a discovery professional. Alexis, influenced by her father’s innovative approach to his law practice and title insurance company, as well as her mentor, civil rights attorney Jacqueline Green, decided to pursue a law degree at Temple University.

As the couple navigated their careers, they faced challenges and opportunities that brought them closer together in the legal technology space. When Jeff took a job in California, Alexis decided to “infiltrate” the industry, bringing her passion for improving efficiency and building better client relationships to her roles. Their shared experiences and different perspectives on innovation and technology lead to engaging discussions and occasional disagreements, but ultimately strengthen their bond.

Alexis and Jeff emphasize the importance of being well-resourced in their current roles, which allows them to tackle novel challenges and collaborate with talented colleagues. They find excitement in their work, whether it’s being at the forefront of client relationships or finding creative solutions to complex problems.

When asked about their advice for couples considering working in the same field or together, Alexis stresses the importance of being friends with your partner and being able to picture a respectful relationship even in the worst-case scenario (we made a music video about this part of the conversation!). Jeff echoes this sentiment, emphasizing the need for genuine curiosity about one another’s lives and the value of giving each other space when needed.

As Alexis and Jeff continue to navigate their love and legal tech journey, their story serves as an inspiration for couples seeking to balance their personal and professional lives in an ever-evolving industry.

Check out Jeff’s band, Glowing Burns on Spotify and other music streaming services.

 

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Music: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Jerry David DeCicca⁠⁠⁠⁠

Transcript

Continue Reading Love And Legal Tech: Alexis Hayman and Jeff Niemczura

In this episode of The Geek in Review podcast, hosts Marlene Gebauer and Greg Lambert welcome back Richard Tromans, founder of Artificial Lawyer, after his year-and-a-half sabbatical. Tromans shares his insights on the impact of generative AI on the legal industry and discusses his upcoming Legal Innovators conferences in California and London.

Tromans observes that while the legal industry is generally enthusiastic about the potential of generative AI, there is a stark contrast in the perception of its impact outside the legal bubble. He believes that the technology will have a significant effect on the legal sector, but it will be mostly benign, with the potential to add value to the profession once the hype and cynicism subside.

The key to real transformation, according to Tromans, lies in integrating AI throughout the entire business process, rather than using it as a mere helper tool. This integration should encompass document management systems, knowledge management capabilities, templates, and precedents. However, he emphasizes that the current economic model of the legal industry must adapt to the technology for true transformation to occur.

Tromans also discusses the upcoming Legal Innovators California conference in San Francisco, which will focus on generative AI, standardization, and the infrastructure needed to support the evolving legal landscape. The event will feature speakers from law firms, in-house legal departments, academia, and major tech companies.

Looking ahead, Tromans believes that the biggest challenge for the legal industry over the next two to five years will be the willingness of clients and law firms to embrace change and rethink their processes. He argues that the industry could have adopted AI-driven solutions years ago, but the impetus to do so was lacking. The success of this “gentle revolution” will depend on the ability of clients and law firms to challenge assumptions and adapt to the changing technological landscape.

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Music: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Jerry David DeCicca⁠⁠⁠⁠

Transcript

Continue Reading Artificial Lawyer’s Richard Tromans: Back to Work!

In this episode of The Geek in Review podcast, hosts Marlene Gebauer and Greg Lambert welcome back Kris Satkunas, Director of Strategic Consulting at LexisNexis CounselLink, to discuss the findings of the 2024 Trends Report. The report, now in its 11th year, provides valuable insights into the legal industry, particularly focusing on hourly rates and spending patterns.

Satkunas explains that the data used in the report comes from the CounselLink Insight benchmarking database, which normalizes and anonymizes data related to matters and billing from CounselLink customers. This year’s report highlights significant increases in hourly rates, with firms relying more heavily on this lever to increase revenue and offset rising costs due to inflation. However, the degree to which rates have increased in recent years is noteworthy, with certain practice areas, such as M&A and IP litigation, commanding even higher rate increases.

Despite the substantial rate hikes, the report shows that blended rates at the matter level are not increasing as much, suggesting that other factors, such as staffing and leveraging, are helping to mitigate individual rate increases. Satkunas also notes that while there is a perception that high rates may drive clients to mid-sized firms, the data does not support this trend, with large law firms maintaining and even growing their client base.

The discussion also touches on the adoption of alternative fee arrangements (AFAs), which has remained relatively stagnant over the years, with only around 10% of matters having some form of AFA. However, Satkunas remains optimistic that the increasing pressure on corporations to manage costs, coupled with the adoption of AI and other technologies, may lead to a greater uptake of AFAs in the coming years.

Looking ahead, Satkunas predicts that rates will continue to rise, but the legal industry will likely see changes in the business model as AI becomes more integrated into legal practices. She emphasizes the importance of in-house counsel investing in the right talent to assess their needs and determine which technologies will best address those needs. Additionally, as AI advances, more transactional work may become commoditized, potentially leading to increased adoption of AFAs for these components of legal matters.

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Music: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Jerry David DeCicca⁠⁠⁠⁠

Transcript

Continue Reading 2024 Trends Report: Dynamics Shaping the Future of Legal w/CounselLink’s Kris Satkunas

In this episode of The Geek in Review podcast, hosts Marlene Gebauer and Greg Lambert welcome Jeroen Thierens, Strategic Account Advisor, and Jorn Vanysacker, co-founder of Henchman, a Belgian legal tech company that focuses on building an intelligent drafting assistant for lawyers working on complex transactional contracts based on precedents in the firm’s DMS.

Vanysacker shares the story behind Henchman’s founding, emphasizing the importance of solving a clear problem with a focused product strategy. The company’s mission is to unlock the collective knowledge within law firms and legal departments by connecting to their document management systems, recognizing contracts and clauses, and making this information easily accessible within Microsoft Word and Outlook.

Henchman serves both in-house legal teams and law firms, with a customer base spanning from boutique firms to AmLaw 200 firms. The platform addresses two main use cases: drafting transactions and assisting knowledge management teams in gaining data-driven insights to prioritize their work and boost relevant knowledge in search results.

The discussion also touches on Henchman’s integration with Microsoft Copilot, which aims to provide more accurate results when drafting contracts by leveraging the structured data and metadata within the platform. The company’s European perspective is reflected in its language-agnostic system, which works seamlessly with multiple languages, making it an attractive solution for global law firms.

Looking ahead, Vanysacker and Thierens discuss the challenges and opportunities presented by generative AI in the legal industry. While acknowledging the potential of large language models, they emphasize the importance of context and accuracy in transactional work. Henchman’s approach is to use AI as a tool to enhance their product, focusing on providing the next best options rather than just the next best words, ultimately aiming to become the “Chief of Staff” for each legal professional.

 

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Transcript

Continue Reading Jorn Vanysacker & Jeroen Thierens from Henchman: We Are Building the “Chief of Staff” For Each Legal Professional

Our friend Damien Riehl stopped by to talk with Marlene Gebauer about two big happenings at vLex. Riehl unveiled exciting advancements in vLex’s AI-powered legal research platform and shed light on vLex’s commitment to streamlining legal workflows and reducing the need for extensive prompt engineering.

One of the major developments is the enhanced document analysis feature. Users can now upload legal documents, such as complaints, and vLex’s AI will automatically extract key information including claims, facts, parties involved, and potential legal defenses. This eliminates the tedious manual process of reviewing and analyzing documents, saving lawyers significant time and effort. Additionally, the platform suggests relevant legal research questions based on the document’s content, further expediting the research process.

vLex’s advancements directly address the growing concerns surrounding prompt engineering in legal tech. By automating key analytical tasks, the platform empowers lawyers to focus on higher-level strategizing and client interactions, rather than spending hours crafting the perfect prompts for AI tools. Riehl echoes the sentiment of OpenAI’s Sam Altman, believing that successful AI integration should render prompt engineering obsolete. He acknowledges that the option to fine-tune prompts remains, similar to Boolean search techniques, but emphasizes that vLex aims to make it a choice rather than a necessity.

The potential impact on the legal industry is substantial. Clients, especially large corporations, can leverage vLex’s capabilities to analyze past legal actions and assess the value provided by their law firms. This transparency could lead to a shift from billable hours to flat-fee arrangements, incentivizing efficiency and cost-effectiveness.

Further amplifying vLex’s potential, the company welcomes Daniel Hoadley, a renowned legal tech expert, to lead their research and development team. Hoadley’s expertise in data science and large language models promises exciting advancements in harnessing the power of vLex’s vast legal document database. With a robust roadmap of projects, vLex’s is poised to continue pushing the boundaries of legal technology and shaping the future of legal practice.

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Transcript

Continue Reading Vlex Pushes Legal Tech Boundaries with New Features and Top Talent