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On this episode of The Geek in Review, hosts Marlene Gebauer and Greg Lambert interview Thomas Suh, Founder and CEO, and Ken Block, Senior Account Executive of LegalMation. The company provides AI-powered tools to help litigators automate repetitive tasks and work more efficiently. The conversation focuses on LegalMation’s products, overcoming resistance to adopting new legal tech, and predictions for the future evolution of legal service delivery.

Suh provides background on founding LegalMation about seven years ago to help streamline the “scut work” litigation associates spend time on. The flagship product automates drafting responses to lawsuits, discovery requests, demand letters, and more by leveraging a firm’s historical data. LegalMation initially built an automation tool internally at a law firm before deciding to spin it off into a standalone legal tech company. The product found an early champion in the form of a corporate legal department interested in licensing it. Today, LegalMation serves large corporate legal departments, law firms, and insurance companies.

Suh and Block discuss common roadblocks to adopting new legal technology like lack of trust and skepticism. Suh notes the importance of identifying the right use cases where efficiency gains matter most. For high-stakes litigation, efficiency may be less of a concern than for high-volume routine matters. Corporate legal departments are often early adopters because they are focused on efficiency and supplementing personnel. Law firms still incentivized by billable hours may be warier of efficiency gains.

For the YouTube Viewers, Block demonstrates LegalMation’s Response Creator tool for automating drafting of responses to complaints and discovery requests. The AI leverages a firm’s historical data to maintain proper tone and style while speeding up document preparation significantly. Lawyers can still review and edit the AI-generated drafts before finalizing. Suh explains that because the AI relies solely on a firm’s data, it maintains consistency rather than attempting to generate random creative language.

Looking ahead, Suh predicts that the litigation process will become more modular, with different firms or providers specializing in discrete phases rather than handling a case end-to-end. Block emphasizes that younger lawyers expect to leverage more technology and are unwilling to slog through repetitive manual tasks, which will force law firms to adapt. Technology stacks and automation will become selling points for recruiting top young talent.

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Music: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Jerry David DeCicca⁠⁠⁠⁠

Transcript


Continue Reading Thomas Suh and Ken Block on How LegalMation is Revolutionizing Litigation Efficiency (TGIR Ep. 222)

In this episode of The Geek in Review, hosts Marlene Gebauer and Greg Lambert have an illuminating discussion with Christina Wojcik, the new Managing Director of Corporate for LexFusion. Christina has over 20 years of experience pioneering innovation in the legal services and technology space.

The conversation covers Christina’s diverse background and journey into legal tech, including formative experiences at companies like Pangea3, IBM, Seal Software, and Citi. She shares key lessons learned about the importance of visionary leadership, solving real client problems, and embracing a fearless, entrepreneurial spirit.

Christina provides insights into top pain points for legal departments today, especially at highly regulated organizations like major banks. She discusses the cautious approach many are taking with emergent technologies like generative AI—treating it like a “monster behind the door” to be carefully studied before fully unleashing.

Christina advocates for “failing fast” when testing innovations, allowing for rapid iteration in a safe sandbox environment. She explains her rationale for joining LexFusion and how she hopes to leverage her well-rounded expertise to drive value for legal tech providers and clients alike.

The conversation concludes with Christina’s predictions for the legal industry’s evolution in areas like AI adoption, CLM consolidation, and new service delivery models. She provides a fascinating insider perspective on the future of legal innovation.

https://open.spotify.com/episode/3B4A7EFJBE1WzqUteJXXRr?si=mOC-OyQ4Qhe1glFffLysdg

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Music: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Jerry David DeCicca⁠⁠⁠⁠

Transcript


Continue Reading Unleashing the Legal Monster Behind the Door – LexFusion’s Christina Wojcik (TGIR Ep. 221)

This episode of The Geek in Review podcast provides an in-depth look at how the AI assistant Paxton, created by Tanguy Chau and Mike Ulin, is transforming legal work. The hosts speak with the founders of Paxton to explore the pain points their technology aims to solve and how generative AI can enhance lawyers’ capabilities.

Tanguy and Mike discuss their backgrounds in AI, regulatory compliance, venture capital, and management consulting. This diverse experience informed their vision for Paxton as an AI assistant specifically built for legal and compliance professionals. They explain that Paxton is trained on millions of legal documents and regulations, allowing it to search this vast knowledge and retrieve highly relevant information rapidly. A key feature they highlight is Paxton’s accuracy in citing sources, with every sentence linked back to the original text.

One of the key features of Paxton is that it can automate repetitive, low-value legal work to make lawyers more efficient. Tanguy notes that tasks like reviewing thousands of sales contracts clause-by-clause or compiling 50-state surveys that once took weeks can now be done by Paxton in minutes. Mike discusses Paxton’s advanced document comparison capabilities that go beyond keyword matching to understand meaning and intent. This allows quick, substantive analysis of contracts, marketing materials, and more.

Exploring the future, Mike predicts that like software developers, lawyers who embrace AI will become much more productive. But higher-level strategic thinking will remain uniquely human. Tanguy shares an analogy of a human on a bicycle outpacing a condor, the most efficient animal. He believes combining human creativity with AI tools like Paxton will enable radically new levels of efficiency and capability.

Paxton.AI’s Tanguy and Mike make a compelling case that AI-powered tools such as Paxton will fundamentally transform legal work. By automating repetitive tasks, AI will free lawyers to focus on high-value, client-facing work. Overall, this episode provides great insights into how generative AI may soon become indispensable for legal professionals seeking to improve their productivity and capabilities.

As a special treat, we wrap up the interview with a demonstration of Paxton.AI’s capabilities. (YouTube only)

Links:

Paxton AI (try the Beta for free)

Forbes Article: Unlocking The 10x Lawyer: How Generative AI Can Transform The Legal Landscape

Using Generative AI to analyze the 45 page Trump Indictment using Paxton AI

Unveiling Paxton AI’s Newest Features: Boolean Composer and Document Compare

Instantly Analyzing the Congressional UFO Hearing with Generative AI powered by Paxton AI

Transcript:

Continue Reading Paxton.AI’s Tanguy Chau & Michael Ulin: How AI Allows Legal Work to Soar to New Heights (TGIR Ep. 220)

On this episode of The Geek in Review podcast, hosts Marlene Gebauer and Greg Lambert interview Kris Martin, Executive Vice President at Harbor, to discuss innovation, AI, and the future of technology in the legal industry.

They open the show by talking about Harbor’s upcoming LINKS conference and its keynote focused on exploring human potential in the age of AI. Kris provides background on how the conference originated from an annual survey Harbor conducts to take the pulse of the legal community. He explains Harbor’s goal is to support legal organizations through insights, research, and events like the LINKS conference.

The discussion moves to AI trends and Jean O’Grady and Harbor’s strategic Start/Stop Survey results. The survey reveals 93% of firms are actively exploring AI tools, with top vendors being Casetext and Thomson Reuters. Kris emphasizes law librarians play a crucial role in evaluating new AI technologies and guiding procurement decisions as firms adopt these tools.

However, with tight budgets at most firms, Kris Martin points out it’s also important to audit usage data of existing resources. This helps inform negotiations with vendors to find cost savings on research contracts. He notes legal research tools will inevitably integrate more tightly into lawyers’ daily workflows in the future. To facilitate this, Kris introduces the concept of “citizen coders” – enabling lawyers to articulate their needs and processes in technology and code terms rather than just legal terms.

Shifting gears, Kris elaborates on Harbor’s recent rebranding from HBR Consulting, which brought six previously merged companies together under one unified brand and mission. He explains that true integration requires deep alignment across the merged organizations on culture, vision, and values. This allows Harbor to provide end-to-end solutions for legal organizations.

Looking to the future, Kris predicts legal research will become even more embedded into lawyer workflows over the next 2-5 years, rather than a separate step. He sees law libraries’ roles evolving as AI capabilities increasingly integrate into legal processes and tools. Rather than going to a separate platform for research, lawyers will access these AI-enhanced tools in their daily workflows.

Overall, the wide-ranging discussion provides insights into Harbor’s efforts to support the legal community through conferences, research, and integrating emerging technologies. Kris highlights the importance of law librarians evaluating and implementing new AI tools while also managing costs through audits. He leaves listeners with an optimistic vision for the future where legal research and lawyers’ needs are more tightly connected through technology.

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Music: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Jerry David DeCicca⁠⁠⁠⁠
Transcript


Continue Reading LINKS, Citizen Coders & Auditing Shelfware: Insights from Harbor’s Kris Martin

This week on The Geek in Review, hosts Greg Lambert and Marlene Gebauer spoke with Katie DeBord and Kristin Zmrhal, two vice presidents from legal tech company DISCO. Greg kicked off the episode by discussing his recent work with a Houston nonprofit called Project Remix Ventures that helps at-risk youth. He took their leader on a visit to innovation hub The Ion to showcase reinventing old spaces for new purposes, like DISCO has done with legal tech. The hosts then welcomed Katie DeBord, who moved from being Chief Innovation Officer at law firm Bryan Cave Leighton Paisner to DISCO. In her current role, Katie focuses on leveraging technology like AI to improve the litigation process for lawyers. She drew experience from her past analyst role at the CIA, where she honed her skills in synthesizing complex data sources.

The hosts also introduced Kristin Zmrhal, who has over 20 years of experience in the legal tech space. At DISCO, she helped build their eDiscovery products and services. Kristin explained that DISCO’s vision is to create great legal technology that helps lawyers find evidence faster. Their product suite now covers the entire litigation lifecycle, from intake to discovery to case management. DISCO uses AI tools like their new Celia application to automatically surface insights from case documents, allowing lawyers to review documents more efficiently. They are also careful to cite sources to ensure transparency.

In terms of company culture, Katie and Kristin discussed how DISCO values rapid experimentation, quick decision-making, and collaborating as a team. They also emphasize empathy in how they treat each other and design products for users. Being a public company also gives employees a sense of ownership. On the innovation side, Katie sees billable hours changing due to advancing legal technology, which will impact law firm profitability models. Kristin predicts AI adoption will reach a tipping point in legal tech within 2-5 years, drastically improving processes like eDiscovery. However, regulating AI poses challenges for the legal industry.

For giving back, DISCO has community service and pro bono programs. DISCO Cares allows employees to volunteer locally. Through DISCO Pro Bono, they donate their technology to support pro bono legal matters. This aligns with their mission of making legal services more accessible. When asked for parting thoughts, Katie emphasized lawyers needing to leverage professionals from adjacent disciplines as part of their teams. Kristin reiterated that this is the most exciting time in her 20 year legal tech career, with AI poised to transform legal workflows.

This engaging discussion provided insights into DISCO’s innovative products and empathetic culture. With seasoned experts like Katie and Kristin leading the way, DISCO seems well-positioned to help shape the future of legal technology. Listeners can connect with Katie and Kristin on LinkedIn and find out more about DISCO’s offerings at csdisco.com. Be sure to stay tuned to The Geek in Review for more insights from leaders in legal tech.

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Music: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Jerry David DeCicca⁠⁠⁠⁠

⁠⁠Transcript

Continue Reading Fast, Smart, and Empathetic: How DISCO’s Culture Drives Legal Tech Innovation (TGIR Ep. 217)

Tony Thai and Ashley Carlisle of HyperDraft, return to The Geek in Review podcast to provide an update on the state of generative AI in the legal industry. It has been 6 months since their last appearance, when the AI Hype Cycle was on the rise. We wanted to get them back on the show to see where we are on that hype cycle at the moment.

While hype around tools like ChatGPT has started to level off, Tony and Ashley note there is still a lot of misinformation and unrealistic expectations about what this technology can currently achieve. Over the past few months, HyperDraft has received an influx of requests from law firms and legal departments for education and consulting on how to practically apply AI like large language models. Many organizations feel pressure from management to “do something” with AI, but lack a clear understanding of the concrete problems they aim to solve. This results in a solution in search of a problem situation.

Tony and Ashley provide several key lessons learned regarding limitations of generative AI. It is not a magic bullet or panacea – you still have to put in the work to standardize processes before automating them. The technology excels at research, data extraction and summarization, but struggles to create final, high-quality legal work product. If the issue being addressed is about standardizing processes or topics, then having the ability to create 50 different ways to answer the issue doesn’t create standards, it creates chaos.

Current useful applications center on legal research, brainstorming, administrative tasks – not mission-critical legal analysis. The hype around generative AI could dampen innovation in process automation using robotic process automation and expert systems. Casetext’s acquisition by Thomson Reuters illustrates the present-day limitations of large language models trained primarily on case law.

Looking to the near future, Tony and Ashley predict the AI hype cycle will continue to fizzle out as focus shifts to education and literacy around all forms of AI. More legal tech products will likely combine specialized AI tools with large language models. And law firms may finally move towards flat rate billing models in order to meet client expectations around efficiency gains from AI.

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Music: ⁠⁠⁠⁠Jerry David DeCicca⁠⁠⁠

⁠⁠Transcript

Continue Reading You Still Need to Put in the Work: Hyperdraft’s Ashley Carlisle and Tony Thai on the AI Hype Cycle (TGIR Ep. 213)

In this episode of The Geek in Review podcast, host Marlene Gebauer and co-host Greg Lambert discuss cybersecurity challenges with guests Jordan Ellington, founder of SessionGuardian, Oren Leib, Vice President of Growth and Partnership at SessionGuardian, and Trisha Sircar, partner and chief privacy officer at Katten Muchin Rosenman LLP.

Ellington explains that the impetus for creating SessionGuardian came from working with a law firm to secure their work with eDiscovery vendors and contract attorney staffing agencies. The goal was to standardize security practices across vendors. Ellington realized the technology could provide secure access to sensitive information from anywhere. SessionGuardian uses facial recognition to verify a user’s identity remotely.

Leib discusses some alarming cybersecurity statistics, including a 7% weekly increase in global cyber attacks and the fact that law firms and insurance companies face over 1,200 attacks per week on average. Leib notes SessionGuardian’s solution addresses risks beyond eDiscovery and source code review, including data breach response, M&A due diligence, and outsourced call centers. Recently, a major North American bank told Leib that 10 of their last breach incidents were caused by unauthorized photography of sensitive data.

Sircar says law firms’ top challenges are employee issues, data retention problems, physical security risks, and insider threats. Regulations address real-world issues but can be difficult for global firms to navigate. Certifications show a firm’s commitment to security but continuous monitoring and updating of practices is key. When negotiating with vendors, Sircar recommends considering cyber liability insurance, audit rights, data breach responsibility, and limitations of liability.

Looking ahead, Sircar sees employee education as an ongoing priority, along with the ethical use of AI. Ellington expects AI will be used for increasingly sophisticated phishing and impersonation attacks, requiring better verification of individuals’ identities. Leib says attorneys must take responsibility for cyber defenses, not just rely on engineers. He announces SessionGuardian will offer free CLE courses on cybersecurity awareness and compliance.

The episode highlights how employee errors and AI threats are intensifying even as remote and hybrid work become standard. Firms should look beyond check-the-box compliance to make privacy and security central in their culture. Technology like facial recognition and continuous monitoring helps address risks, but people of all roles must develop competence and vigilance. Overall, keeping client data secure requires an integrated and ever-evolving approach across departments and service providers. Strong terms in vendor agreements and verifying partners’ practices are also key.

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Music: ⁠⁠⁠⁠Jerry David DeCicca⁠⁠⁠

⁠⁠Transcript


Continue Reading Cybersecurity in the Remote Work Era: AI, Employees and an Integrated Defense – With SessionGuardian’s Jordan Ellington and Oren Leib, and Katten’s Trisha Sircar (TGIR Ep. 211)

Isha Marathe, a tech reporter for American Lawyer Media, joined the podcast to discuss her recent article on how deep fake technology is coming to litigation and whether the legal system is prepared. Deep fakes are hyper-realistic images, videos or audio created using artificial intelligence to manipulate or generate fake content. They are easy and inexpensive to create but difficult to detect. Marathe believes deep fakes have the potential to severely impact the integrity of evidence and the trial process if the legal system is unprepared.

E-discovery professionals are on the front lines of detecting deep fakes used as evidence, according to Marathe. However, they currently only have limited tools and methods to authenticate digital evidence and determine if it is real or AI-generated. Marathe argues judges and lawyers also need to be heavily educated on the latest developments in deep fake technology in order to counter their use in court. Regulations, laws and advanced detection technology are still lacking but urgently needed.

Marathe predicts that in the next two to five years, deep fakes will significantly start to affect litigation and pose risks to the judicial process if key players are unprepared. States will likely pass a patchwork of laws to regulate AI-generated images. Sophisticated detection software will emerge but will not be equally available in all courts, raising issues of equity and access to justice.

The two recent cases where parties claimed evidence as deep fakes highlight the issues at stake but did not dramatically alter the trial outcomes. However, as deep fake technology continues to rapidly advance, it may soon be weaponized to generate highly compelling and persuasive fake evidence that could dupe both legal professionals and jurors. Once seen, such imagery can be hard to ignore, even if proven to be false or AI-generated.

Marathe argues that addressing and adapting to the rise of deep fakes will require a multi-pronged solution: education, technology tools, regulations and policy changes. But progress on all fronts is slow while threats escalate quickly. Deep fakes pose an alarm for legal professionals and the public, dragging the legal system as a whole into an era of “post-truth.” Trust in the integrity of evidence and trial outcomes could be at stake. Overall, it was an informative if sobering discussion on the state of the legal system’s preparedness for inevitable collisions with deep fake technology.

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Email: geekinreviewpodcast@gmail.com
Music: ⁠⁠⁠⁠Jerry David DeCicca⁠⁠⁠

⁠⁠Transcript

Continue Reading The Rise of “Post-Truth” Litigation: ALM’s Isha Marathe on How Deep Fakes Threaten the Legal System (TGIR Ep. 209)

Our guest this week is Kristina Satkunas, Director of Analytic Consulting at LexisNexis. Kristina discusses the recently released LexisNexis CounselLink Enterprise Legal Management Trends Report for 2023. This annual report provides insights and benchmarks on key metrics related to corporate legal spending and outside counsel relationships.

The 2023 report found that law firm hourly rates increased 4.5% over the past year, the highest year-over-year increase in the 10 years LexisNexis has published the report. While rate increases are not surprising, the magnitude is noteworthy. Kris attributes the largest drivers of the increase to economic factors like inflation as well as lower demand for certain types of legal work. However, average blended rates (the rates charged for entire matters rather than individual timekeepers) remained relatively flat. This suggests in-house counsel are mitigating rate hikes by changing the mix of firms, timekeepers, and types of timekeepers working their matters.

The report also found the ongoing trend of consolidation to fewer outside firms continues, with 61% of companies using 10 or fewer firms for 80% of their legal spending. Kristina expects this trend to remain relatively stable but notes there are benefits to using both a smaller number of firms (e.g. better rates, stronger relationships) and a larger number of firms (e.g. subject matter expertise, competitive rates). She recommends companies determine when to use large firms versus smaller or midsize firms based on factors like matter complexity, risk profile, and cost.

Alternative fee arrangements (AFAs) have not gained significant traction according to the report, remaining at about 12% of matters. Kristina is an advocate for wider AFA adoption and believes companies need to ask for and consider AFA proposals, especially for appropriate matters. AFAs can help buffer rising hourly rates. She acknowledges AFAs require effort to evaluate and implement but thinks legal operations teams and outside counsel should work together using data and analytics to develop reasonable AFA proposals.

The report provides new data on international lawyer rates in 22 countries. Rates differ significantly between countries based on factors like a country’s economy, political stability, and role in global trade and commerce. Many companies are leveraging international firms for regulatory, litigation, IP, and other legal needs outside the U.S. Benchmark data on rates in different countries provides helpful context, especially when engaging firms in new countries.

Kristina sees two significant changes on the horizon:

  1. Determining how to properly and effectively employ AI and technology to increase efficiency and reduce costs; and
  2. Continued access to data enabling both in-house and outside counsel to make smarter, data-driven decisions.

When asked what metric in-house and outside counsel should focus on, Kristina recommends using available data, whether from the survey or a company’s own systems. Data is a “two-way street” that should be shared collaboratively to improve decision making.

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Twitter: ⁠⁠⁠⁠@gebauerm⁠⁠⁠⁠, or ⁠⁠⁠⁠@glambert⁠⁠⁠⁠ Voicemail: 713-487-7821 Email: geekinreviewpodcast@gmail.com Music: ⁠⁠⁠⁠Jerry David DeCicca⁠⁠⁠

⁠⁠Transcript


Continue Reading The Rising Cost of Legal Services: Insights from 10 Years of Data from CounselLink’s Kristina Satkunas

This week on The Geek in Review, Marlene Gebauer and Greg Lambert talk with Curt Meltzer, principal of Meltzer Consulting, LLC. Meltzer has over 40 years of experience in the legal and legal tech industry. He discusses his interest in pro bono and community outreach programs in law firms and legal tech companies. He notes that while 95% of AmLaw 200 law firms highlight pro bono work on their websites, many legal tech companies do not prioritize these efforts.

Meltzer emphasizes that pro bono and community work is good for business. It enhances company culture, helps with recruiting and retaining top talent, and strengthens customer relationships. He argues that legal tech companies should consider emulating their law firm clients’ community programs. This could include donating software or services, allowing employees paid time off for volunteer work, or collaborating directly with organizations that law firm clients support.

Meltzer highlights LexisNexis and Thomson Reuters as leaders in the legal tech industry for their work promoting access to justice and the rule of law around the world. However, he notes that companies of any size can contribute, whether through recognizing employees who volunteer or donating resources. He published a list of 41 legal tech companies that do highlight community outreach on their websites to raise awareness, though he found 39 companies with no mention of such efforts.

Meltzer sees both opportunities and challenges ahead. Private equity investment in legal tech companies may prioritize short-term profits over community programs. However, companies that do not respond to customer interest in their pro bono and corporate social responsibility initiatives risk losing business to competitors. Overall, Meltzer aims to foster conversations about strengthening the relationship between the legal tech community and the broader community. Corporations that embrace ESG programs and give back to the communities they serve will thrive.

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Music: ⁠⁠⁠⁠Jerry David DeCicca⁠⁠⁠

⁠Transcript⁠


Continue Reading Curt Meltzer on Why Legal Tech Companies Should Give Back: The Business Case for Pro Bono, A2J, and Community Outreach (TGIR Ep. 207)