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What does legal AI value look like once speed stops serving as the headline metric? In this episode of The Geek in Review, Greg Lambert and Marlene Gebauer speak with Nikki Shaver, co-founder and CEO of Legal Technology Hub and a member of the inaugural Financial Times Law 50. Shaver argues that law firms need to move beyond time saved toward efficacy: stronger output, stronger client outcomes, and more effective legal advice.

The conversation examines why the billable hour is far from finished yet no longer serves as the sole measure of legal value. Shaver compares hourly timekeeping to a taxi meter: useful for internal visibility, yet insufficient as the price signal for work transformed by AI. Workflow mapping, client discussions, and pricing discipline become central where an AI-enabled process compresses weeks of effort into hours.

Corporate legal departments are adopting AI at a faster pace, bringing new pressure to outside counsel. Some in-house teams see AI as a route to keep more work inside, while others see room for firms to take on work that previously sat outside budget limits. Shaver frames the strategic question around delivering more for clients, especially in practice areas where a firm holds differentiated expertise.

AI has not produced the promised empty calendar. Instead, lawyers report fuller schedules, longer documents, and a growing verification tax. Shaver flags the rise of 40-page forms, bloated redlines, and outputs that look polished yet lack sound reasoning. The episode makes a practical case for concise drafting, human review, and critical reasoning before any AI-generated material reaches a client or counterparty.

Agentic AI raises the stakes. Legal Technology Hub’s AI Agents in Law Map tracks hundreds of solutions, yet governance has not kept pace with new autonomy, connectors, and downstream system access. Shaver urges firms to establish traceability, unique identifiers, risk-based human oversight, enforceable policies, and a clear view of where data travels.

For firms aiming past baseline adoption, Shaver draws a line between routine personal use and strategic transformation. Daily use builds fluency, but competitive advantage grows from proprietary workflows, data foundations, client-facing collaboration spaces, and focused investment in the practices where a firm already excels. Her crystal-ball view is blunt: trusted judgment will become a scarce premium asset, AI-native firms will rise, and traditional firms will launch AI-native subsidiaries of their own.

Listen on mobile platforms:  ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Apple Podcasts⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ |  ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Spotify⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ | ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠YouTube⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ | ⁠Substack⁠

[Special Thanks to ⁠⁠Legal Technology Hub⁠⁠ for their sponsoring this episode.]

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Email: geekinreviewpodcast@gmail.com

Music: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Jerry David DeCicca⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Transcript:

Continue Reading Nikki Shaver on Legal AI Strategy, Agentic Governance, and Trusted Judgment

For law firms, artificial intelligence has often arrived as a choice between speed and control. Stephen Costigan, founder of Atlas AI, argues that choice deserves a rethink. In this episode of The Geek in Review, we speak with Costigan about private legal AI infrastructure, knowledge graphs, and why a firm’s internal work product may become its most valuable long-term asset.

Atlas AI focuses on turning documents, matter history, precedents, clauses, parties, and obligations into a curated legal knowledge graph inside a firm’s own environment. Costigan contrasts this approach with standard vector search and retrieval systems, which find text with similar language but often lack context around clients, matters, entities, and relationships. A knowledge graph offers structure, linking people, documents, clauses, and legal concepts in ways closer to how lawyers understand their work.

The conversation also explores data quality, a subject with enough baggage to fill a records room. Costigan argues firms no longer need year-long cleanup projects before seeing results. Agent-led curation, entity extraction, duplicate resolution, and ontology mapping reduce much of the manual sorting traditionally associated with knowledge management. Human judgment still matters, especially around practice-area vocabularies and lower-confidence results, but the machines get assigned more of the janitorial work.

Security and governance sit at the center of Costigan’s model. Rather than asking firms to trust a vendor’s assurances around privileged data, Atlas AI runs within a firm’s Azure environment, under firm-controlled keys and policies. Costigan frames this as a shift from confidentiality as a contractual promise to confidentiality as an architectural decision. For legal organizations handling sensitive client information, the location of data, embeddings, audit trails, and model interactions matters as much as the interface lawyers see on screen.

Looking ahead, Costigan predicts a divide between firms renting generic AI tools and firms building durable knowledge infrastructure from their own experience. As routine drafting, diligence, and review work compress, firms with structured and reusable internal intelligence may productize expertise, offer new fixed-fee services, and rely less heavily on traditional leverage models. The future question, Costigan suggests, will not center on which AI tool sits on a lawyer’s desktop. The bigger question will ask who owns the knowledge behind the work.

Listen on mobile platforms:  ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Apple Podcasts⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ |  ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Spotify⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ | ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠YouTube⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ | ⁠Substack⁠

[Special Thanks to ⁠⁠Legal Technology Hub⁠⁠ for their sponsoring this episode.]

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Email: geekinreviewpodcast@gmail.com

Music: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Jerry David DeCicca⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Transcript:

Continue Reading Own the Graph: Stephen Costigan on Private AI, Knowledge Infrastructure, and Law Firm Advantage

This week we welcome American Association of Law Libraries leaders Jenny Foster, AALL President for 2025-2026, and Jessica Whytock, AALL Vice President and President-Elect. The conversation offers a preview of the 2026 AALL Annual Meeting & Conference in Cleveland, Ohio, along with a thoughtful look at how the association is supporting legal information professionals during a period of institutional, technological, and professional change.

Foster reflects on a leadership year focused on transparency, communication, and meaningful opportunities for member participation. From strengthening channels between members and AALL leadership to intentional volunteer appointments across committees and juries, she describes an association built through relationships. The goal is to ensure newer, mid-career, and seasoned law librarians all have a visible place in shaping the profession’s future.

Advocacy also plays a central role in the discussion. Foster explains how AALL continues its work on access to legal information, public policy, and coalition-building, even amid staffing transitions. The association’s Government Relations Committee has continued meeting with members, offering advocacy training, rebuilding connections with peer organizations, and aligning its work with AALL’s strategic priorities. For law librarians, advocacy is both a long-term commitment and a practical responsibility tied to preserving authoritative legal information.

The 2026 conference theme, “Leading with Aloha,” gives the Cleveland meeting its distinct point of view. Foster shares how aloha, rooted in kindness, unity, humility, patience, and meaningful connection, became a framework for leadership during uncertain times. More than 65 programs will explore topics ranging from generative AI and legal scholarship to physical collection strategy, access challenges, and the changing role of legal information professionals. Local programming connected to Cleveland’s history will bring an added sense of place to the gathering.

Whytock looks ahead to her upcoming presidency with a focus on clear pathways for engagement, leadership, grants, scholarships, committee service, and professional growth. Both leaders see artificial intelligence as a catalyst for a deeper conversation about the identity and value of legal information professionals. Their message is straightforward: the future of law librarianship rests in human judgment, critical thinking, ethical discernment, context, access, and a community willing to bring more voices into the room. The 2026 AALL Annual Meeting in Cleveland offers a place for those conversations to move from aspiration into action.

Listen on mobile platforms:  ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Apple Podcasts⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ |  ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Spotify⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ | ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠YouTube⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ | ⁠Substack⁠

[Special Thanks to ⁠⁠Legal Technology Hub⁠⁠ for their sponsoring this episode.]

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Email: geekinreviewpodcast@gmail.com

Music: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Jerry David DeCicca⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Transcript:

Continue Reading AALL 2026 Annual Meeting Preview with Foster and Whytock: Leading with Aloha, Legal AI, and the Future of Law Libraries

In this episode of The Geek in Review, we welcome Greg Dickason⁠, Chief Technology Officer at ⁠LexisNexis⁠, for a wide-ranging conversation on agentic legal AI, Lexis+ AI Protégé, and the movement from AI chat toward AI work. Dickason frames the shift through a simple contrast: earlier legal AI answered questions, while agentic workflows take on multi-step assignments, conduct research, create drafts, verify citations, and move legal professionals closer to finished work product. For law firms and legal departments trying to understand where AI goes next, this episode places agentic AI squarely inside legal workflow, legal research, drafting, and risk management.

A major theme of the conversation is trust. Dickason explains how Shepard’s Verify extends the familiar Shepard’s signal beyond traditional research screens and into uploaded work product. Rather than asking lawyers to rely on AI-generated text without a verification layer, LexisNexis is building citation checking into the workflow, giving lawyers a path to confirm whether cited authority exists, whether authority is still good law, and how later courts treated the cited case. For lawyers worried about hallucinated citations, AI-generated briefs, and unreliable authority, this verification layer becomes part of the product architecture, rather than an afterthought.

The discussion also explores the relationship between LexisNexis and Anthropic, along with the rise of legal AI skills. Dickason describes a market where model choice, orchestration, and legal skills increasingly matter as separate layers. Anthropic, OpenAI, Google, and other model providers offer impressive foundations, yet legal work needs more than general-purpose intelligence. Large law workflows require legal content, expert reasoning, matter-specific playbooks, and firm-defined processes. Dickason notes the ability to upload firm playbooks as skills, giving firms a path to bring their own way of working into Protégé.

Security receives equal billing with accuracy. As firms place client documents into AI vaults and connect work product to legal AI platforms, Dickason explains bring your own key, or BYOK, through a practical office-and-locked-cabinet analogy. The point is control: client content sits encrypted, access depends on the user’s key, and access stops when the key is withdrawn. He also discusses legal chunking, indexing, vector stores, retrieval-augmented generation, and knowledge graphs as part of building AI systems suited for legal documents, rather than generic file handling.

The episode closes with a broader view of legal AI’s impact on junior associates, legal training, and access to law. Dickason does not predict the end of junior lawyers. Instead, he sees AI helping junior lawyers become senior faster through mock trials, mock depositions, and richer training environments. He also warns of risks from agent volume, security vulnerabilities, and legal systems struggling to keep pace with AI-enabled industries. The message is pragmatic and optimistic: agentic legal AI will change legal work, yet the winners will be those who combine trusted content, secure systems, verification, workflow design, and human judgment.

Listen on mobile platforms:  ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Apple Podcasts⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ |  ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Spotify⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ | ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠YouTube⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ | ⁠Substack⁠

[Special Thanks to ⁠⁠Legal Technology Hub⁠⁠ for their sponsoring this episode.]

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Email: geekinreviewpodcast@gmail.com

Music: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Jerry David DeCicca⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Transcript:

Continue Reading LexisNexis CTO Greg Dickason on Agentic Legal AI, Protégé, Shepard’s Verify, and the Future of Legal Work

In this episode of The Geek in Review, Greg Lambert and Marlene Gebauer welcome back ⁠Joel Hron⁠, Chief Technology Officer at ⁠Thomson Reuters⁠, for a timely conversation about the shifting relationship among foundation models, legal content providers, legal tech platforms, and the lawyers trying to make sense of the mess. Recent moves by Anthropic, including Claude’s legal practice area tools and MCP connections into legal platforms, raise a larger question for the market. Is a model provider still sitting behind the scenes, or is it starting to become a legal work environment of its own?

Hron explains Thomson Reuters’ commitment to what it calls ⁠fiduciary-grade AI⁠, a standard built around trust, verification, transparency, and accountability. For TR, legal AI needs more than a fast answer. It needs systems lawyers trust enough to stand behind. Hron points to Westlaw, Practical Law, KeyCite validity signals, citation ledgers, and verification tools as core ingredients in building AI systems suited for high-stakes professional work. In his view, almost right is not good enough when clients, courts, regulators, and professional obligations sit on the other side of the output.

The conversation turns to how CoCounsel and Westlaw Deep Research use legal content across far more than traditional research tasks. Hron explains that when AI systems gain access to trusted legal content and verification tools, they begin researching throughout the workflow, even while revising contract language or analyzing provisions. He also describes Litigation Document Analyzer, internally nicknamed the BS Detector, a tool designed to review claims in a document and map them to supporting authority, weak support, or no support at all. For lawyers who spend as much time verifying AI output as generating it, tools like these aim to move verification from a manual scavenger hunt into a structured process.

Greg and Marlene also press Hron on Anthropic’s legal plugins, MCP, and the idea of headless legal technology. Hron argues that MCP changes access, not advantage. In his view, the application layer is shifting, but the real competitive value sits in trusted content, expert systems, governance, and domain-specific intelligence. CoCounsel’s user interface represents one expression of TR’s legal agent capabilities, while MCP opens other ways for those capabilities to appear inside broader work environments. Some work will still need a purpose-built legal interface; other work might happen through email, Word, Claude, or another agentic workflow with little visible interface at all.

The episode closes with a larger discussion about what happens when AI starts performing more of the work itself. Hron shares TR’s internal engineering OKR, where more than 50 percent of pull requests should be written by AI, and explains why 51 percent serves as a useful mental model. Once AI performs a controlling share of the work, the human role shifts from doing the task to governing the system. For legal professionals, the same transition is coming. The key question is no longer only whether AI produces useful work. It is whether lawyers have built the systems, context, safeguards, and verification layers needed to trust the work, defend the work, and remain accountable for the work.

Listen on mobile platforms:  ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Apple Podcasts⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ |  ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Spotify⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ | ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠YouTube⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ | ⁠Substack⁠

[Special Thanks to ⁠⁠Legal Technology Hub⁠⁠ for their sponsoring this episode.]

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Email: geekinreviewpodcast@gmail.com

Music: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Jerry David DeCicca⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Transcript:

Continue Reading Legal AI, Trust, and Agents: Joel Hron on Thomson Reuters, Anthropic, and the Future of CoCounsel

This week on The Geek in Review, we talk with Abdi Shayesteh, CEO of AltaClaro, and Jeanine Conley Daves, Littler’s New York office managing shareholder, about a different question in the legal AI conversation. Instead of asking whether AI will write the brief, summarize the contract, or replace the junior associate, they focus on whether AI might help lawyers learn how to practice law. Their recent work around AltaClaro’s DepoSim points toward a model of legal training built less on passive observation and more on structured repetition, feedback, and skill development.

Shayesteh traces the origin of AltaClaro back to his own early years at King & Spalding, where he benefited from proximity to a mentor willing to explain the work. That experience also showed him the unevenness of the old apprenticeship model. Access to assignments, feedback, and sponsorship often depended on luck, relationships, and office geography. For Shayesteh, the idea of a “flight simulator for lawyers” grew out of the realization that pilots, athletes, and musicians all practice in structured environments before performance, while lawyers too often learn in front of clients, courts, and opposing counsel.

DepoSim applies this flight simulator concept to one of litigation’s highest-pressure skills: taking and defending depositions. The platform gives attorneys a simulated witness, opposing counsel, court reporter, and feedback system, with options to vary the difficulty and personalities involved. Conley Daves explains why this kind of realism matters. In a real deposition, a lawyer might face an evasive witness, a hostile witness, an aggressive opposing counsel, or a combination of all three. The simulator lets lawyers practice those moments repeatedly, receive targeted feedback, and return to specific skills such as exhibit handling, follow-up questions, or managing objections.

The conversation also connects AI training to equity in professional development. Conley Daves notes that access to high-quality assignments and sponsorship has not always been distributed evenly across firms. A standardized, rubric-based feedback system gives more lawyers a chance to build core skills without waiting to be selected by the right partner or assigned to the right matter. Shayesteh adds that firms seeing the strongest results are not treating training as an after-hours side quest. They are creating protected time for deliberate practice, pairing AI feedback with human mentorship, and using simulation as a bridge rather than a substitute for coaching.

Looking ahead, Shayesteh and Conley Daves see simulation moving well beyond depositions. Oral argument, cross-examination, meet-and-confer sessions, negotiations, client interviews, and even Supreme Court preparation all fit within this training model. The larger shift is not automation for its own sake. It is the use of AI to help lawyers build judgment before the stakes are real. For law firms, that means better preparation, more consistent training, stronger associate development, and a clearer path toward delivering value to clients. For the profession, it suggests a future where competence is practiced deliberately, measured thoughtfully, and taught more fairly.

Listen on mobile platforms:  ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Apple Podcasts⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ |  ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Spotify⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ | ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠YouTube⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ | Substack

[Special Thanks to ⁠Legal Technology Hub⁠ for their sponsoring this episode.]

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Email: geekinreviewpodcast@gmail.com
Music: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Jerry David DeCicca⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Transcript:

Continue Reading The Flight Simulator for Lawyers: Abdi Shayesteh and Jeanine Conley Daves on AI, Deliberate Practice, and the Future of Legal Training

This week on The Geek in Review, we talk with Ryan McClead of Sente Advisors about his new book on AI agents, written in collaboration with Claude. McClead explains how a short best practices guide grew into a full book after his work with Claude Cowork revealed something larger than tool tips or prompt advice. The result is part field guide, part warning label, and part first-person report from the edge of agentic AI adoption in legal work.

Download it as a PDF for free here.
Or purchase a printed copy here.

McClead’s process flips the traditional writing model. Instead of staring at a blank page, he asked Claude to generate an outline and draft, then spent weeks shaping, cutting, challenging, and refining the work. The book became a study in collaboration, with McClead serving as author, editor, supervisor, and occasional bouncer when the AI wandered too far from the point. His description of training Claude toward his voice, “more Anthony Bourdain and less Bobby Flay,” gives the episode one of its best lines and one of its most useful lessons.

A central idea from the conversation is “executable knowledge.” McClead argues knowledge management teams need to think beyond content meant for humans to find and read. The next stage is knowledge structured, so AI agents understand when to use it, how to apply it, and how to turn it into repeatable workflows. For law firms, this raises practical questions around scale, security, permissions, data quality, and governance. It also creates a new role for KM and innovation teams as builders of reusable legal intelligence.

The discussion also moves past prompt engineering as the main AI skill. McClead describes a shift from prompting to delegation, where users set goals, provide context, invite clarifying questions, and supervise the work product. The human role does not shrink in this model. It becomes more focused on judgment, direction, taste, and knowing when to take the work away from the AI before endless iteration turns progress into mush.

By the end of the episode, McClead frames AI agents less as replacements and more as strange new colleagues whose usefulness depends on the expertise of the person directing them. Good lawyers, KM professionals, and innovation leaders get faster and more effective. Poor processes get accelerated too, which is where the danger sits. For legal organizations, the message is clear: start small, learn the tool, build guardrails, and prepare for a future where clients ask not only for legal answers, but for legal workflows they can run.

Listen on mobile platforms:  ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Apple Podcasts⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ |  ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Spotify⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ | ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠YouTube⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ | Substack

[Special Thanks to ⁠Legal Technology Hub⁠ for their sponsoring this episode.]

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Email: geekinreviewpodcast@gmail.com
Music: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Jerry David DeCicca⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Transcript:

Continue Reading Ryan McClead on Writing With Claude and What AI Agents Mean for Legal Work

This week on The Geek in Review, we talk with Alex Su and Andy Chagui of Latitude about the shifting economics of law firm talent, the rise of flexible legal staffing, and the pressure AI is placing on traditional leverage models. Su, known across legal circles for his sharp commentary and creative legal industry videos, brings his background as a former Sullivan & Cromwell litigator and federal clerk to his current work leading revenue strategy at Latitude. Chagui adds the perspective of a former Carlton Fields shareholder who spent 15 years handling high-stakes federal litigation before moving into the new law space. Together, they offer a practical view of where law firm staffing is headed as clients, firms, and legal departments all face rising expectations around speed, value, and technology adoption.

Latitude’s model centers on high-end, flexible legal talent, experienced attorneys with Big Law or in-house backgrounds who step into law firms and corporate legal departments for specific engagements. Chagui explains that these lawyers often support overflow work, leave coverage, secondment requests, internal projects, and interim needs across practices ranging from litigation to corporate, labor, and employment. Su adds that staffing itself is not new, yet Latitude focuses on a segment of talent that traditional hiring models often miss, experienced attorneys with strong credentials who prefer engagement-based work over the standard full-time track.

The conversation turns quickly to why this model is gaining traction now. Remote work, post-COVID hiring shifts, and the growing acceptance of distributed teams have made it easier for firms to bring in experienced attorneys without requiring long-term headcount commitments. Chagui notes that many Latitude attorneys have 10 or more years of experience, meaning they often need less supervision than junior lawyers and move quickly into productive work. This matters as firms face inconsistent demand, intense competition for talent, and hesitation around layoffs, which in law firms often signal weakness rather than discipline.

AI adds another layer to the staffing problem. Firms have invested in tools such as Harvey, CoCounsel, and other specialized platforms, yet many knowledge management and innovation teams lack enough subject matter experts to train users, review outputs, build use cases, and handle quality control. Chagui describes Latitude lawyers helping firms train internal AI tools, review AI-generated work, and support practice-specific rollout efforts. Su points out that while some firms offer associates credit for AI training or innovation work, associates under billable hour pressure often choose client work first. Flexible talent gives firms another way to support AI adoption without asking already-stretched associates to carry the full load.

Su also frames flexible talent as a new form of leverage. Clients still trust senior partners and often accept premium rates for high-value judgment, but they are increasingly skeptical of paying top-tier rates for junior-level work. In that middle layer of legal work, AI, technology, and experienced flexible attorneys give firms more options. Su calls this “outsourced leverage,” a way to support the partner-client relationship while rethinking who performs the work underneath. The discussion also highlights a career-path shift for attorneys who prefer specialized, project-based work, especially in areas like knowledge management, AI implementation, and innovation support.

Looking ahead, both guests see uncertainty as the defining feature of the next phase of legal services. Chagui expects the traditional model to keep changing as firms and legal departments seek more flexible options. Su predicts continued upheaval around staffing, AI capabilities, and outside counsel relationships, especially as foundational AI models move further into in-house legal workflows such as NDA review, contract review, and eventually parts of diligence. Yet Su also offers a reminder for law firm leaders: premium legal judgment still has value. The rates for top partners are unlikely to fall simply because AI improves. The pressure will land instead on how firms structure the work beneath them.

Listen on mobile platforms:  ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Apple Podcasts⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ |  ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Spotify⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ | ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠YouTube⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ | Substack

[Special Thanks to ⁠Legal Technology Hub⁠ for their sponsoring this episode.]

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Email: geekinreviewpodcast@gmail.com
Music: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Jerry David DeCicca⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Transcript:

Continue Reading Alex Su and Andy Chagui on Flexible Legal Talent, AI Pressure, and the Future of Law Firm Leverage

This week on The Geek in Review, we talk with Keith Maziarek, founder of Lucratic Method and Bodhi Solutions, about the shifting economics of legal work, AI’s impact on pricing, and why law firms and clients need better commercial conversations. Keith brings more than two decades of experience in pricing, profitability, legal project management, and business-of-law strategy from firms including DLA Piper, Perkins Coie, and Katten. His new consulting work focuses on aligning client value with law firm operations, a topic gaining urgency as AI changes how legal work gets produced, measured, and priced.

Keith argues the legal industry has spent too much time asking what technology firms use, while ignoring how economic models, client expectations, and service delivery structures support the work. For him, the problem is less about whether BigLaw is broken and more about both firms and clients being “tone deaf” to each other’s business realities. Firms talk about realization rates. Clients talk about cutting spend. The better conversation starts with mutual value, risk, predictability, staffing, and clarity around which work deserves premium treatment and which work should be systematized.

The discussion turns directly to generative AI and the mistaken assumption that faster work must always mean cheaper work. Keith makes an important distinction between routine, high-volume work and complex, high-stakes legal matters. AI will reduce variance and improve budget predictability in many workflows, especially where tasks are repeatable and pattern-based. But in complex work, AI’s greater value might come from better preparation, broader analysis, and stronger outcomes, rather than dramatic cost reduction. The Neil Katyal Supreme Court preparation example gives this point a useful frame. AI might not reduce time, but it might improve judgment.

Keith also explores how AI will reshape law firm staffing and leverage. Fewer junior associates might be needed for some traditional tasks, but firms will need more data professionals, technologists, process experts, and other allied professionals to make AI-driven work reliable. This raises hard questions about associate development, talent pipelines, compensation, and the future shape of the partnership model. The old pyramid might narrow into something closer to a specialized team, with carefully selected lawyers and business professionals working together around data, process, and client value.

The episode closes with Keith’s view of the next phase of legal transformation. Firms are still experimenting, but the experimental period will give way to sharper questions about revenue models, profitability, AI-enabled service delivery, and whether certain work belongs inside the firm, with an ALSP, or in a hybrid model. His crystal ball points toward a market where firms with mature commercial thinking gain ground, while firms slow to rethink pricing, staffing, and process risk falling behind. As Keith suggests throughout the conversation, the future of legal work is not only about smarter tools. It is about whether firms learn to run better businesses.

Listen on mobile platforms:  ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Apple Podcasts⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ |  ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Spotify⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ | ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠YouTube⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ | Substack

[Special Thanks to ⁠Legal Technology Hub⁠ for their sponsoring this episode.]

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Email: geekinreviewpodcast@gmail.com
Music: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Jerry David DeCicca⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Transcript:

Continue Reading Keith Maziarek on AI, Pricing, and the New Economics of Legal Work

This week on The Geek in Review, we talk with Lennie Nuara, co-founder of Flatiron Law Group, about what it means to build a talent-first, AI-powered legal practice. Nuara brings a rare mix of lawyer, technologist, operator, and systems thinker to the conversation, drawing from decades of experience using technology to improve legal work, from early portable computers and databases to today’s generative AI tools.

Nuara explains why he resists the phrase “AI-first” in legal practice. For him, legal work begins with talent, judgment, and expertise. AI enters as a force multiplier, not the driver. At Flatiron, the firm’s model was already built around flat fees, lean staffing, process discipline, and structured data before generative AI entered the picture. AI now adds more horsepower to a system already designed to reduce waste, repeat touches, and unclear workflows.

Much of the discussion focuses on M&A due diligence, where Flatiron rethinks the deal life cycle from intake through closing. Instead of throwing documents into a massive repository and hoping AI sorts it out, Nuara describes breaking work into smaller pieces: diligence questions, responses, documents, clauses, topics, closing checklists, and reports. That structure lets lawyers use AI for deduplication, extraction, clause comparison, first-pass drafting, and issue spotting while keeping human judgment between higher-risk steps.

Nuara also warns against getting seduced by polished AI output. He describes generative AI as persuasive, fluent, and sometimes dangerously average. The bigger risk, in his view, is less hallucination and more “model monoculture,” where legal drafting drifts toward sameness because models train from overlapping bodies of public material. In complex private transactions, average language is often the wrong answer. Lawyers still need to understand leverage, client priorities, risk allocation, and where to push beyond market terms.

The episode closes with a look at pricing, training, and the future structure of law firms. Nuara argues that AI will pressure the billable hour, change junior lawyer training, and force firms to rethink the traditional pyramid. He also raises a practical concern from the early Westlaw and Lexis days: the cost of the tool matters. Flatiron tracks AI usage down to the clause level, treating tokens as part of matter economics. For legal professionals watching AI reshape transactions, this conversation offers a grounded reminder: better tools matter, but better process and better judgment still decide the outcome.

Listen on mobile platforms:  ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Apple Podcasts⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ |  ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Spotify⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ | ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠YouTube⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ | Substack

[Special Thanks to ⁠Legal Technology Hub⁠ for their sponsoring this episode.]

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Email: geekinreviewpodcast@gmail.com
Music: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Jerry David DeCicca⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Transcript:

Continue Reading Flatiron Law Group’s Lennie Nuara on Talent-First AI, M&A Workflows, and the Future of Legal Practice