This week, we discuss the evolving landscape of professional development and training within the legal industry. With a special focus on innovative methods and technological advancements, this episode features insights from three distinguished guests: Adam Stofsky, CEO at Briefly, Ian Nelson, Co-Founder of Hotshot, and Caitlin Vaughn, Managing Director of Learning and Professional Development at Goodwin. Together, they explore how modern training programs are being reshaped to meet the demands of a rapidly changing legal environment.
Staying Relevant in Rapidly Changing Times
Adam Stofsky discusses the challenges and strategies for keeping legal training content fresh and relevant. Briefly’s custom content creation, which addresses real-time issues faced by legal teams, ensures that the material is always up-to-date. Stofsky highlights the importance of integrating modern tools like AI to enhance training efficiency without losing the human touch. The conversation transitions into how technology like AI and tools such as Descript are transforming content creation, allowing for more efficient and scalable training solutions.
Practical Skills and Training Innovation
Ian Nelson emphasizes the importance of practical skills over theoretical knowledge in legal training. He shares Hotshot’s approach to delivering hands-on, practical training that prepares lawyers for real-world scenarios. Feedback from users indicates a high demand for practical training that directly supports their daily tasks. Nelson also touches on the strategic importance of training programs, noting how firms are increasingly integrating such programs into their overall professional development plans.
Goodwin’s Comprehensive Training Program
Caitlin Vaughn presents an in-depth look at Goodwin’s first-year associate training program, a full-time, eight-week initiative that combines technical and professional skills development. Vaughn explains how the program blends live sessions, asynchronous learning, and interactive components to create a holistic training experience. This innovative approach not only prepares new associates for their roles but also fosters a culture of continuous learning. Vaughn also discusses the integration of laterals, focusing on personalized training plans to address individual needs and ensure smooth transitions.
Future Challenges and Opportunities
In the crystal ball segment, the guests share their insights on the future of legal training. They discuss the challenges of managing rapid changes in law, technology, and training methodologies. The consensus is that while there are significant challenges, there are also immense opportunities to innovate and improve the effectiveness of legal training. Customization, quality content, and effective pacing are highlighted as key factors for successful training programs in the future.
The discussions underscore the importance of innovative, practical, and engaging training solutions that keep pace with the evolving demands of the legal profession. As the legal landscape continues to change, firms that embrace these advancements will be better positioned to equip their lawyers with the skills they need to succeed.
Listen on mobile platforms: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | YouTube
Contact Us:
Twitter: @gebauerm, or @glambert
Email: geekinreviewpodcast@gmail.com
Music: Jerry David DeCicca
Contact Information:
Adam Stofsky: Adam@brieflynow.com | Briefly | LinkedIn: Adam Stofsky
Ian Nelson: Ian@hotshotlegal.com | Hotshot | LinkedIn: Ian Nelson
Caitlin Vaughn: LinkedIn: Caitlin Vaughn
Transcript:
Marlene Gebauer 0:00
Greg, welcome to the geek in review. The podcast focused on innovative and creative ideas in the legal industry. I’m Marlene gaybauer
Greg Lambert 0:07
And I’m Greg Lambert, and today, gee, we’re going to jump into the innovative world of professional development and training in the legal industry. So we’re going to take a and take a pretty wide view of training for lawyers and business professionals, clients and more. And as the legal landscape evolves, so does the need for effective and cutting edge training solutions. They can seamlessly integrate to new attorneys and others into their roles, while enhancing their their skills and their knowledge.
Marlene Gebauer 0:39
We are very privileged to have three distinguished guests with us today, Adam stofsky, CEO at briefly. Adam leads briefly, a company renowned for creating engaging, short form educational content tailored for legal professionals. Briefly, unique approach includes animations and expert interviews that simplify complex legal topics, making them accessible and relevant for attorneys at all levels. And
Greg Lambert 1:08
we also have Ian Nelson, I think Ian, you’ve been on the show before, haven’t you?
Yes, he has.
I thought you looked familiar.
Marlene Gebauer 1:15
He’s a return guest.
Greg Lambert 1:18
You know, after five, you get a you get a tiara, right?
Or a smoking jacket
Ian Nelson 1:23
let’s book them.
Greg Lambert 1:26
So Ian is the co founder at hotshot and it’s a video based learning platform for lawyers. Hotshots content is designed to bridge the gap between theoretical knowledge and practical application of legal, legal tech business skills, ensuring that attorneys and other professionals are well prepared for the demands of their roles, and about half of the amlaw 100 are hotshot customers. So congrats on that lean.
Marlene Gebauer 1:55
And finally, we welcome Caitlin Vaughn, Managing Director of learning and professional development at Goodwin. Caitlin oversees the learning and professional development initiatives at Goodwin and at Goodwin. Caitlin and her team, among other things, leverage innovative training tools to enhance the onboarding and ongoing training of Goodwin lawyers. Adam Ian and Caitlin, welcome to the geek in review.
Adam Stofsky 2:17
Thank you. Happy to be here.
Greg Lambert 2:20
So Adam, we’re gonna kick this off with you. I thought it was really interesting, because in marlene’s introduction, we talked about briefly offering, you know, these engaging short animations and expert interviews to quickly educate the legal team. So you mind telling us a little bit more about how kind of overview of briefly itself, but how do you kind of keep that content relevant and up to date? Because things are just constantly changing all the time. And, you know, how does the legal teams have benefited from using Briefly?
Marlene Gebauer 2:57
How do you keep it fresh?
Adam Stofsky 2:58
Yeah, that’s a, I mean, that’s kind of a complicated it’s a bunch of different questions in one.
Greg Lambert 3:04
Yeah, we thought we started start off really difficult.
Marlene Gebauer 3:07
Multiple questions all at once.
Greg Lambert 3:08
It gets easier from here. Adam.
Adam Stofsky 3:10
Compound questions, what is it? I haven’t been done any litigation in 15 years.
Marlene Gebauer 3:14
Compound questions, yeah.
Adam Stofsky 3:16
Anyway, it’s been a lot of time. So, right, okay, so briefly, you know, as you said, our mission is to make legal information more engaging and accessible to everyone, right? So we specialize in making highly engaging, short form relevant, often funny content that explains legal issues to lawyers and non lawyers alike, right? So we try to educate many people in the business and the public about legal issues. So yeah, staying relevant up to date is a huge challenge, partly because obviously, substantively the law is moving so quickly, but also, like styles change and fashions change, and we’re kind of a design company as much as we are like a training and legal information company, so we try to stay relevant that way too. So I think the issue of how to stay relevant is actually really interesting. We do in a variety of ways. One is because we produce a lot of custom content. We have a subscription kind of based library as well. But a lot of our work is creating custom content, bespoke content, for various legal teams and organizations. So because we’re working with in House lawyers, you know, some non profit organizations, some firms we kind of had. We’re kind of, it’s almost by default. We’re at that cutting edge because we’re responding to the exact problems that these lawyers have in the moment. So we’re not sitting there trying to figure out what to make training on. We’re actually responding to a specific problem right now. It’s often very surprising, like, I’ve learned a ton. Like, I never worked at a big tech company. I have no idea what the problems are, and we hear from them. So for example, we work with one big tech company to solve a variety of problems around contracting. So they said their biggest pain points are trying to help their customers understand why their MSA looks like it does, and to try to. Cut down on a lot of negotiation around that contract. So actually educating other lawyers about their contract, I never thought. I never could have dreamed that up, and then I learned this is actually a huge problem for many, many, many SaaS companies. And so suddenly we’re at the cutting edge of something we didn’t even realize existed. Another problem is a lack of contract knowledge among sales teams in particular. And there’s a lot of balancing companies have to do between educating their salespeople like enough versus too much, right? You want them to answer basic questions about a lot of customers, but not go wild and start like negotiating complex indemnity provisions and things like that. That’s a problem I never knew exists. It also appears to be kind of a cutting edge problem. So we learn a lot about what’s going on, AI use policies, right? Obviously, everyone. Maybe this one’s a bit more obvious, but like a lot of companies are trying to deal with, how to, you know, onboard an AI use policy, how to communicate about it, to their to their people. So I think, by the nature of our custom work, we kind of end up a bit at the cutting edge. We also work with a lot of big law firms on our platform, and so we’re working with, with lawyers there who truly are like their job is to stay at that bleeding edge. It’s often way too much for us to kind of get a grip on, to be honest, but we try to do what we can. I’ll just say one final thing on this. You know, I’m not I think being at the cutting edge is important, but I’ve noticed a lot of companies, even ones you think would be pretty sophisticated about training and about content, they’re kind of way behind. They’re really just getting started. And let some of them say, well, all that AI use policy stuff sounds great, but we don’t even, like have an LMS yet, or even know what that means, or we haven’t done our basic GDPR training or whatever. So there’s a kind of catch up, I think that a lot of companies need to do so anyway, that’s my compound answer to your compound question. I
Marlene Gebauer 6:46
want to, I want to follow up on that Adam, because we were talking a lot about content and talk, and then we sort of left it with technology. And so I want to keep going on that technology thread. So we’ve, we’ve had a huge year in technology leaps, you know, with AI and other advancements, but you’re also saying that the customer base sometimes, maybe hasn’t done enough catch up to take advantage of some of these, some of these new tools. So, you know, how have you seen sort of this, this new development, you know, has it changed the way you approach what you do there at briefly or or not?
Adam Stofsky 7:27
Oh, yeah. I mean, it’s changed. It’s changed our work tremendously. I’m curious to hear from from Ian about this too. And when you know when you move forward is, I mean, I think it’s the technology has changed our work in a variety of ways, some like, really dramatically. Others less dramatically. Obviously, AI is, is a big deal. But you know, what we’re not seeing is the like, Hey, we’re gonna, like, push a button and make a great video sort of thing. It doesn’t work that way. I don’t think it will for a long time. In fact, Marlene, I remember, I think you interviewed me, you know, in December about, I’d say predictions about AI. I think I was trying to be a contrarian. Said, I don’t think it’s going to be a big deal at all. And I think it is a big deal, but not in the way, not in the way people think so. For example, like, I’ll just call out descript. We were talking about this in the green room. How descript is is, is a platform that allows us to record videos, record all the audio and video locally, and then edit the videos off the transcripts. It also allows us to, essentially, like deep fake our participants voices if they consent. It allows us to type in what we want them to say, which is great for keeping videos up to date and things like that. But it’s just a transcript based editing that’s been the huge game changer, not this, like cool deep fake voice thing. It’s really cool and it’s useful, but it’s often like the less kind of sexy things that are most important. So descript has been a huge game changer. It’s helping us create more content at scale, helping us work with our clients to keep content up to date. So like, you’ll get the thing where, like the CEO is talking about they’re like the new priorities of the company, or their new ethics policy for 2023 but then it turns out it’s exactly the same in 2024 but they have a video that says 2023 all the time. So that kind of little tweak we can now do without revisiting, without interviewing that executive again, or that CEO. Little things that are really, really useful, however, kind of like almost, was it Paul Volcker who said, like, the most amazing financial innovation the last 30 years has been the ATM, I think for me, the biggest tech lead for our work, trying to get people to record locally really great content is, like a great podcast mic that doesn’t use, like a thick, fancy XLR cable, but you can just plug it into USB. That has been, like a it has really been the last couple years, like huge game changer. So there’s, like, sexy AI tech, but just lots of little incremental tech advances that make a huge difference in our ability to create high quality content at scale and remotely, and frankly, spending spending less money. But all that said, I think, you know, I don’t think you’re gonna see this, like push a button, Mickey grid video, or these, like. Perfectly human avatars that are going to be doing great. I think what you’re going to see is lots of really cool tools that at the margins are helping us to scale the technical sides of video production and content creation to help us do it faster and better, at least. That’s my optimistic take right now.
Marlene Gebauer 10:17
All right, so Ian, I’m going to shift back to content again. So hotshots training emphasizes practical skills in really, real world scenarios. So how do you balance the teaching of theoretical knowledge and practical skills, and what feedback have you gotten from your customers and users about the practical, practical applicability of your training. Content,
Ian Nelson 10:48
Sure, thanks for having me back on the podcast. Working forward to that smoking jacket. Wherever I get
Marlene Gebauer 10:55
there’s three away. Awesome.
Ian Nelson 10:59
The balance is pretty much heavily, heavily, heavily skewed to the practical, and we avoid the theoretical, unless you really have to explain some underlying concept, which people can get from many other places, a lot of them, aside from a lot of our experiences of hotshot, I was a clueless baby lawyer, and the first assignment I got, the partner said, All right, Ian, go tell me what looks Weird in the diligence on a reverse triangular merger. What? And I spent three years learning the theoretical, and none of that helped me when I was trying to look for something weird. So we’re always looking for the practical at hotshot, and when we have to do theoretical, it’s it’s to support the practical. And that’s what our customers want. That’s what our users want, and that’s what we focus on in hot shot.
Greg Lambert 11:44
So, uh, Caitlin, let me, let me jump over to you. And because we were talking about the, you know, the technology, advanced advancements, and how that’s been a topic conversation. And one of the things that I’ve kind of learned since about December, November of 2022 is that even though we we may have a lot of conversation around some of these cutting edge technology, it also opens up the conversation for, you know, more of the practical of, okay, well, that’s great, but there’s this, here’s this thing that we got you five years ago that really You know, if you can learn that, it’s going to help you more than any of the the Gen AI so, you know, as someone who’s responsible for the training of the lawyers there, what impact do you think that just having Gen AI discussions is having on how the Lawyers are trained and what you’re doing about that.
Caitlin Vaughn 12:44
Sure, I like to think about this along three different dimensions. The first is the impact that AI we will, we expect will have on the volume of work, particularly the volume of work for more junior lawyers. The second is the type of technical skill sets that we expect our lawyers are going to need in order to live in an environment where tech enabled practice is gaining efficiencies in a model that has historically been about the volume of hours and not the efficiency with which you do your work. And the third is the impact on professional skills, and the professional skills that our lawyers will need and when they’ll need them. You know, some people might say soft skills. I try and stay away from that term, because I actually think that the soft skills are the hardest to teach and also the most important to learn. So just taking those three In turn, the impact on volume, I think, in a world in which Gen AI is going to do more and more of those sort of higher volume, lower judgment tasks like due diligence, the way that Ian just described it, those work streams are the way that, historically, our more junior lawyers have gained judgment through what our more senior lawyers would say was an apprenticeship model. And sometimes that, to the junior lawyers might have seemed like being thrown in the deep end of a swimming pool and hoping that you can swim. You know that model that learning by doing at volume model will break down the more that we automate, the more junior level tasks, and that means that we have to create more artificial opportunities to gain that judgment, and each of those individual opportunities have To be maximally impactful in the way that they’re teaching the judgment underlying the decisions and answers you give. So in other words, you got to maximize the learning from each rep, because we have you have fewer reps to learn. On the technical skills side, lawyers are going to need a different, more tech enabled way of. Working, they’re going to need to understand how AI can create efficiencies for them. They’re going to need to partner with the technology, as opposed to feeling like the technology is taking away from their jobs. And I actually think we have a generational advantage here, as Gen Z is fully coming into the legal field as our junior and in some cases, mid level associate, that’s a real opportunity for us. And at Goodwin, we’re partnering with our innovation team and our IT training team to think more about the ways that we can create those tech enabled practice opportunities. In other words, working smarter, not harder, is going to become more and more important the more that technology gives us that opportunity, which in turn, is going to create real opportunities. Because at least, you know, when many of us on the call were baby lawyers being at the office late at night and on the weekends was, you know, a regular occurrence, technology has already enabled us to do that less and to be able to at least work on our matters from the comfort of our couches and Our pajamas. We’re trying to make sure that Gen AI and other things are billed as a way for us to create more opportunities for flexibility, more opportunities for agility, and less of an emphasis on the type of work that, frankly, is harder to enjoy and in some cases, feels less exciting to our lawyers from a developmental perspective. And then the last piece, and sorry, I’m talking a lot, the impact on professional skills as Gen AI creates more efficiencies and more opportunities for our lawyers to do the technical work more quickly and with a higher degree of accuracy, the need for people centric skills as a percentage of their skill set goes up. So in other words, you cannot outsource having a relationship with someone being a person that they trust, understanding how people think. Because ultimately, in the legal field, there are legal problems, there are people and business problems that have legal solutions, right? And so the more you can understand how to work with people, the more impactful you’re going to be as a trusted advisor to the C suite of your of your clients. So one of the things that we have been doing is placing a renewed emphasis on people skills, like written and oral communication, emotional intelligence, people management, relationship mastery, those are more important earlier in the life cycle of a lawyer, because you’re not, you know, the the like minion in the back room going through reams of diligence anymore. You’re in front of the client earlier, so you better be prepared.
Greg Lambert 18:07
Interesting. I was hoping there was a technology solution, but you’re saying it’s all about the humans. Ian, I want to get to you, but I can tell Adam’s chomping at the bit to say something so knowing how to use it,
Adam Stofsky 18:25
not chopping. But I just, I was very, like, excited to hear Caitlin say that, because we’ve been talking a lot about this exact point. We do a lot of without people. Yeah, we do a lot of, like, training and coaching of lawyers to become better content creators. We used to do this as, like a national product. Now we’re more doing it as just part of our custom work, because you have to treat them. We have lawyers who are trying to get them to speak in a more engaging way about their area of expertise. We’ve been talking a lot about how communication skills, emotional intelligence, those are the things that technology will not be able to reproduce for a very long time, if ever, and how they’re going to become so much more important in the in this sort of talent market. So anyway, it was very interesting, Katie, to hear you say that from where, where you sit, that the big firms are really thinking about this, because it’s, I think it’s really critical, yeah,
Greg Lambert 19:12
Ian, what? What’s your thoughts on?
Ian Nelson 19:15
Yeah, always great to hear Caitlin discuss these things. I know later we’re going to talk about a program she’s doing that we’re fortunate enough to be working on. Yeah, I mean, we’re seeing that left and right. The conversations we’re having now with firms, they’re at a much higher and more strategic level. I think that firms are realizing that the actual role of the associate is evolving, and training is having a real moment. Training is becoming of strategic importance. I mean, maybe a few years ago, it was sort of a nice to have, in a way, but now that if we pick on diligence another moment, or doc review, or whatever, clients are going to stop paying for junior lawyers to do diligence 100 times, but what they’re going to need is a junior associate who could advise them on what the results of. Diligence means, and that typically isn’t a first year thing. So how do we work together to train up those junior associates do the work that’s, quite frankly, more interesting and valuable, and that’s that’s where this whole training conversation is coming in, and it’s transforming before our eyes now. I mean, we’re getting all these curriculums and law firms saying, How can we supplement and complement these programs, to make them experiential, to make them hands on, to coach them in the critical thinking? And that is a real sea change from when hotshots started and we thought we’d just be a collection of on demand videos. People can turn to when it’s midnight. They say, shoot. How do I do this? Or how do I do that? What’s the balance sheet equation now it’s reinvent our boot camp and reinvent our mid level programs to teach them right once or twice versus 100 times. So I think Jenna is playing right into that, and clause is causing this. I
Greg Lambert 20:53
have a follow up for all of you, is the leadership of the law firm I could see 10 years ago, if you would have said, we want to focus in on the soft skills, on the, you know, we want to teach emotional intelligence that you would have been, you know, chunked out of out of the room, has the leadership of firms come around to understanding the importance of how these skills relate in providing value to the clients.
Ian Nelson 21:26
Kate, let’s just start with that one.
Caitlin Vaughn 21:30
Sure, so I think yes. And you know, maybe I’ve been fortunate in my 14 years at Goodwin that I haven’t encountered the type of pushback that, you know, I’m sure that some firm leaders have that knee jerk reaction, but I think it’s a good it’s a long term problem, not a short term problem. And so sometimes, when you’re faced with the urgent need to ensure that your lawyers are technically adept so that they can do the work for the clients, that’s a really important first step. It’s necessary, but it’s not sufficient. And the way that we know that is that when we have lawyers who are technically adept but who lack those professional skills, get to be very senior associates, they can’t make it over the line to partner if they don’t have emotional intelligence, people management skills, project management skills, communication skills, because they cannot be viewed by our by clients as strategic business advisors right there, there. It’s fine if you need somebody to go and review a document and never have to talk to them again, but if you want somebody that you can actually have in the boardroom or that you can put in front of a client base. If you’re a client yourself, they want to know that you know you’re going to be able to communicate effectively in a way that inspires confidence and that they can trust your judgment. And so what we’ve discovered is that you know you if you start teaching those skills early, by the time you get to your partnership elevation process, you’re much more likely to be a strong candidate for partnership. That said, Those skills are going to be increasingly important as you move down in seniority, the more the tech, the judgment and the communication around what you’re learning becomes more important earlier because of that move, that technological enablement of legal practice,
Ian Nelson 23:30
and from our perspective, we’re we’re seeing that firm leadership is taking these things way more seriously and are asking for support and help in those areas. I mean, example is we’re working on something now. It’s sort of a m a simulation, mock, deal, affirm and run. And it’s not just exercises on doing diligence. It’s, How do you communicate the results to the partner? How are you going to write an email to the client? How do you raise a red flag? How do you explain things? So it’s, it’s the whole thing. It’s the fully formed lawyer skills. It’s not just wrote, look at something and, you know, just do that, to do that,
Caitlin Vaughn 24:15
I was gonna say there’s some really interesting organizations in the UK that’s working with magic circle firms called the O shaped lawyer. They’re actually doing consultative work with some of those firms. And I think a lot of those ideas are going to jump the pond soon. But the idea that, you know, this, is a skill set that our leaders need too, because communicating internally and increasingly complex organizations, you know, it’s not about just great stewardship, it’s also about the opportunities to create trust in organizations, and it’s something that I think I would say our firm leadership has done very well, but I think it’s something that not every firm’s leadership feels as confident in, and so it’s a great opportunity, Adam, go
Marlene Gebauer 24:55
ahead. I will. I will say quickly, Adam, before you. Speak. So we did have Adam curfew on who is my colleague at my firm, who is one of the leaders in that, the O shaped lawyer movement, and, in fact, wrote a book about it. So I’m glad to hear that that it’s it’s picking up. Okay, Adam, go ahead.
Adam Stofsky 25:19
Yeah, thanks. No, that’s not very all really interesting. I was just reflecting on my mere two years in a big law firm, and I think I had, I think it’s fair to say, much better general business communications and emotional intelligence skills than hard legal skills, and it wasn’t really seen or recognized that. It’s kind of interesting that that’s changing and different kinds of talent might be elevated and prized within the firm. It’s encouraging to hear. But Caitlin, I have a question, just a curious question, about the interplay between this new set of priorities and technology. I just remember when I so I was at a law firm of 15 or so years ago, like ediscovery was kind of just getting going right. So we were transitioning. There were still, like conference rooms full of boxes of documents, but there’s also, like ediscovery software. Forgot what we used was not very nice to look at, but we used it. And I remember actually being, I was a litigator, and I remember feeling really bummed out about this software, because I really liked being in the room with my colleagues. There was a kind of camaraderie or there. So it was kind of, I’m not going to say it was fun, but I don’t know there was, there was a lot of gallows humor. Was a it was a much more pleasant experience than just sitting in my office, going to clicking through documents on a discovery platform. And so I My question for you is, is there a tension between the kind of need and rise of, you know, social and emotional skills and all this technology that’s cutting kind of allowing us to just be alone all the time, at home, remote, etc. Is that a problem?
Caitlin Vaughn 26:52
A really good question. Adam, I think it cuts both ways. I think it means that the pull of the technology toward solitary work, whether that’s at your desk in an office or at your desk at home or on the couch at home, for that matter, it was really challenging during covid. I think it was challenging for everybody, and particularly because it was so busy for many of our practices at that time, both litigation and corporate work. I think what you’re seeing in law firms is a recognition that the time in the office needs to be about more than just productivity and the prizing of interaction, the opportunities to collaborate, and the creation of spaces in which collaboration is encouraged or possible, and sometimes it’s little things, not big things. I’ll give an example. Our office in London just moved to a beautiful new building, and one of the things that they’ve done is that there are not rubbish bins in every office. You have to drop the rubbish in a central receptacle, which means that multiple times a day, people get up from their desks and have to go into common spaces and the type of intellectual spillover that happens when you run into each other in an unscripted, unscheduled way, it’s the type. I mean, it’s a little bit silly, right? But it’s the little tweets that make people have human interactions, that makes the working feel more fun, and it’s an area in which I think a lot of engagement work is being done. We have a function at the firm called the Goodwin experience. It’s basically our talent experience function, and that talent experience function is thinking about, how do you make work feel more connected? How do you feel more connected to your colleagues? How do you create deep, meaningful connections with the organization? And you know, some of that is working together in the same room, some of that is doing volunteer work or pro bono work together, some of that is, frankly, like having fun or engaging in parallel play. We have puzzles at in common areas throughout every office, so that if you want to sit and you need five minutes to just clear your brain because you’re trying to get a clear head about something, you can come and work on a puzzle for five minutes. And sometimes, you know, the extroverts may say, I don’t want to work on a puddle. I want to go talk to someone. But especially if you have more introverts at the firm, or you have groups that are more introverted, that parallel play is very important for them to be able to create connections without necessarily saying, Go find a stranger and talk to them. I. Uh, because that’s not a welcoming environment for a lot of people, and it’s so there’s an inclusion aspect
Greg Lambert 30:05
to it. Yeah, all I could see is there’s probably one partner who just has a pile of trash on their desk, and then has somebody come, you know, fix it. But it kind of reminds me of when we we went to centralized printers. You know, used to everyone had their own printer, and then we went, but, and it wasn’t for social reasons, it was for economic reasons that that you would have a centralized printer. But I, I remember people kicking and screaming giving up their printer. I can’t imagine how they how they feel about giving up their trash can.
Marlene Gebauer 30:43
Well, I mean, I like that the introverts are represented. You know, it’s like they are generally not. It’s like it used to be, like the old conference rules, like, okay, just talk to just talk to two people, just talk to two people, and you’ll be okay each day. So, but this is nice because it gives, it gives other options. So, alright, so next question for both Adam and Ian Adam, I guess you can go first. So, so briefly and hotshot provide innovative legal training tools. So what metrics, feedback mechanisms do you use to measure the effectiveness of these training programs for lateral hires and for new associates. How do those metrics influence future content development?
Adam Stofsky 31:30
Yeah, it’s a really good question.
Marlene Gebauer 31:32
I love metric questions.
Adam Stofsky 31:34
I almost want Ian to go first, but I’ll, I’ll, I’ll take a shot
Marlene Gebauer 31:38
wise. Want to do it? I’m there’s, there’s no rules
Greg Lambert 31:41
it’s a compound metrics question.
Adam Stofsky 31:44
I’ll start off to Ian and come back. So, right? So we look at the standard stuff, right? So, and our works have a different from hot shots, because we’re not focused on, you know, associate training directly. We do training for a variety of different stakeholders, but particularly non lawyers, which makes it, you know, the the it’s harder to get them to engage with legal information. So we look obviously like, when we’re doing any training on how many people watched it, who watched it, and we look clearly at like, just like drop off data and basic engagement data. I want to understand where people are leaving this video, where the decay, the user decay stops, so we can see what is like, what is catching the remaining people and getting them to stay, you learn some really fascinating stuff from looking at this data. I’m sure, Ian, you’re looking at all this as well, but for us, we’re also trying to find other metrics that can provide some indication that our content is like doing something right so like, for example, when training sales folks to answer basic questions about, you know, a liability cap or data privacy policy to a potential customer, can we track the reduction in basic questions being referred to in House lawyers over the course of a year. Can we save 10 lawyer hours, expensive lawyer hours over that year period? Because the salesperson feels confident enough to answer the question, you know, can we, you know, can we? Can we track the number of like, you know, unnecessary escalations, things like that? So we’re looking for other metrics that indicate a kind of learning that are kind of narrow enough that you can really see or have a metric associated with him. It’s really hard to do because there’s, like, multi causal reasons. It’s very difficult but, but it’s something we’re really interested in exploring moving forward. So Ian, I
Marlene Gebauer 33:33
had a quick follow up question. Sorry, and this may be a stupid question, but how do you figure out drop off? There’s
Adam Stofsky 33:39
no such thing as stupid questions. Marlene, only stupid answers.
Marlene Gebauer 33:44
Thank you. We
Adam Stofsky 33:46
use, we host everything on Vimeo. And so we just look at Vimeo. And, you know, occasionally and well. And actually, some of our we have, some of our customers actually use YouTube as well. And so we just look at their quite excellent user drop off tools. And they kind of get better and better. So that’s it’s really as simple as that. We didn’t know anything really more sophisticated than
Marlene Gebauer 34:04
that. Okay, sorry, go ahead. Ian
Ian Nelson 34:10
there. Let me think so. I know the question. You mentioned feedback mechanisms as well as metrics. We look at the sort of things Adam mentioned usage rates and drop off and all that kind of stuff which are tracked on our website and our video players have all that, all that stuff that helps us inform what people are watching. But I think for us, more interestingly, is the feedback we get from our users and our customers. We make it a real point to be talking to people all the time, and that’s where our content comes from, and that’s where our features come from, especially past couple of years when everything went remote, and now with Gen AI and advancing training, what people need has really been shaping what we’ve been doing at hotshot more than anything else, I would say. And since we primarily have focused on larger law firms and. The law schools and corporate legal departments, the practice areas there, you could probably imagine the different areas that we cover, as well as the various technology and business skills. But really it’s the customer feedback. I would say is, is the strongest thing where we get, where we where we get our guidance from.
Adam Stofsky 35:16
The one thing I will say is, I try to get so like, one thing I don’t like is, like focus groups when we’re in the production stage, because I feel like a focus group. We’ve, I’ve talked to a lot of kind of content strategists at tech companies about this. And I think for us, like, we end up, you end up getting, like, a few people over influencing, you know, they have, like, they’re like, I really like purple, you know, instead of with a purple video, right? So you have to be really careful about focus groups, but, yeah, the kind of qualitative feedback can be really useful. Though. We’re Ian, do you do we’re trying to do more, like, capture incidental feedback, instead of, like, showing a survey. Hey, did you like our video? I just worry there’s going to be, even if it’s anonymous, like, some bias there. Do you have ways of getting, I haven’t figured this out yet. But do you have ways of getting, like, other flows of feedback, or incidental feedback that don’t connect to you as the as the company providing the training?
Ian Nelson 36:10
Not so much that don’t connect to us providing the training, but we have lots of much more informal, casual ways of getting feedback, which has been the most important thing, and sometimes that’s just some showing up and chatting with customers, and it’s the, it’s the walk to get a sandwich or something, where the most valuable stuff comes from, you know. And the other thing I would say, just to circle back to metrics a bit, you know, there’s also, there’s always a lot of talk of how much money it saved, and things like this. And we do track that we’re starting. Firms are starting to ask for spreadsheets about if we had 10 partners put together this content at $1,000 an hour. Roi is some crazy number, you know, you get into. Well, is the firm going to do that stuff? Maybe. But if you know, we get into more interesting conversations around, well, should you create this sort of content yourselves? If you want to teach the XYZ firm way? And there is a unique way of doing things. Is it’s not for everything, and not sort of conversation guides what we create, right? There is a generic level of information everyone needs. And then you you add your special sauce on top of that, and that’s, I guess, not directly answering the question, but that does help shape what we’re what we’re creating in partnership with the firm. So have the shared understanding, maybe not everything. Maybe we shouldn’t do everything ourselves. This is not the best use of our time or money. And
Caitlin Vaughn 37:26
one of the things that’s important there, sorry, just to pile on is, you know, recognizing that the end users for a given technology, like briefly or hot, aren’t necessarily the end client that you’re trying to please, right? You know two, two things that I’ve observed. One is, particularly when you’re training non partner lawyers, they don’t necessarily know what they know or what they don’t know until they only know in retrospect, right? I’m sure that Adam, the former lawyers on this call, can can remember the moment where, when they were a second or a third year and still didn’t feel like they knew anything, but then they talked to a first year and realized how much they actually knew. Sometimes you only know what you know and how much you’ve learned in America. And the other reality is, you know, sometimes you know, we all have to eat our spinach, right? Like, there are times when we’re teaching content where it doesn’t feel particularly fun or particularly exciting. You know, most lawyers are mildly allergic to math, so we teach finance and accounting content in various ways. They’re not necessarily excited about learning about it in the moment, but then when they learn about it, when they can have a conversation with their client, where they sound intelligent, they are thankful for the fact that we force fed them the salad, even if they were not super excited about eating vegetables at the time. So we actually look at performance review content and mine performance reviews and map them against completion of learning plans, both completions of learning plans on platforms like hotshot and also looking at how our how our internal content is being consumed. And we do find that, you know, interventions matter, right? Like if we look at sort of a control group of a pre pandemic training and a post pandemic training curriculum. We’ll talk a little bit more about what we’ve been doing with our first years. Like we’re seeing a diminution in the while these people you know, like, are really struggling with X, Y and Z content, in part because we think we’re doing a better job of delivering that content qualitative, not quantitative, but meaningful, because the qualitative answer is coming from the people who are well positioned to know whether or not it’s impactful.
Greg Lambert 39:56
Yeah, that I’m going to. Jump ahead a little bit Marlene, because I think this fits right in with the question I was going to ask later. So the you know Adam and Ian, how I know that you work with larger law firms and that you know your your programs are not just standalone programs that you know live, live on their own little island, that you’re part of it a whole professional development and training initiative on behalf of that firm. So you know, how do you interact with the professional development team and others at these firms to kind of make sure that you’re integrating the tools in with the overall program, and not not just seeing it as well. You know the here, here’s hotshot, or here’s briefly. And you know, you can use that, but rather you can use hotshot and briefly as a part of the overall deal. So Ian, do you want to give you a chance?
Ian Nelson 41:01
Yeah, and I want to keep my answer brief, because it tease up something. Caitlin can talk about her unbelievable program they put together, which is a perfect example of this sort of a thing. But, yeah, I mean, like, I think I said earlier in the call, there is a use case where here are some videos. When you run into trouble, go for it. You know, it’s going to help you get through your day and your night, but the more interesting uses when complement and supplements what a law firm does, and that has been the fastest growing use case for us, at least, so that blabbering on too long, we look to partner with our professional development partners and the practice group leaders, and we holistically look at how they want to train their teams, and we’ll say, All right, looks like you’re planning an orientation for first years, or a mini MBA or litigation boot camp. Let’s look at what you’re planning internally. Let’s look at where our stuff slots in to complement and supplement. Here’s some questions, here’s some discussion guides. Let’s make it a holistic approach to training, so we’re sort of changing how formal live learning is happening. And then the other way that we’re doing it is not all firms have the time or resources to put together live programs. So we’ve been working with firms to create self paced learning pads based on the needs of the learner. So maybe you’re a fifth year and you’re being reassigned to a restructuring group. Here’s a selection of six videos you can watch, and when you’ve completed, we’re going to know about it. You’re going to get a certificate and whatever. So there’s lots of self learning happening. And since we got approved for CLE for them, usage is going up a bit, but we never really set out to be a CLE provider. But anyway, we are setting out to integrate ourselves into these ways, rather than, here’s just a bunch of stuff.
Adam Stofsky 42:44
Yeah, just quickly, before Caitlin talks about our project, I’ll just to follow up. Yeah, very similar to the approach with hotshot. We a few other things to add. We we try to make everything kind of platform agnostic, right? So we like make video that can be used and any LMS or any intranet. And we make other things too. We’ll make little interactive experiences in the like type form or they have embed codes, and you can drop those anywhere, right? So we try to be, you know, everything fits together these days, you know, and everything is largely interchangeable. So we try to make things that are technically very easy to implement and can be used anywhere. One thing I’ll add is, you’ve also been trying to experiment with using other kinds of simple integrations to deliver content in unique ways, right? So, like using like little SMS or email drips, where people can get text to their email, Hey, well, here’s your video for the week on data privacy or whatever it is, or even, like, triggered off calendar invites. These are things that, like marketing automation people do every day, right? They they build all kinds of logic trees around how potential customers interact with emails and other kinds of content. So, you know, we’re thinking about like a simple example. Let’s say an executive has a like, a trip on the calendar, international trip or a plane flight. Can we trigger off their calendar invite and send them a video about, you know, cyber awareness on the airplane. So, so that’s another kind of interesting but again, using like, 10 year old technology, right? These are these kinds of integrations. Have been around for ages, but it’s just trying to think about how to use existing software, um, to leverage or squeeze more value out of them, from a from an educational standpoint,
Greg Lambert 44:20
and and Adam, before we go on, because we we have two librarian trained librarians here that think LMS is library management system, and you say,
Adam Stofsky 44:34
Yeah, learning is it? I think learning management, learning management is, yeah, it could be on the spot, yeah.
Ian Nelson 44:41
Speaking of training. And Gen AI was giving a training at a big firm, and I said, Well, today we’ll be talking about llms. And someone said, why are we talking about advanced law degrees today? We said, well, that’s the large language model, which just goes to show we need education in training. That’s right, yeah. Sorry.
Marlene Gebauer 44:57
So Caitlin, i. There’s been a lot of build up about this program, and I have to say, I read about it in the news. It’s like, No, I read about it in the news. I actually spoke about this when I was at legal innovators California as an innovative way to prepare new associates. So I want you to tell us all about this new training program for first years. You know, describe that you know what your team’s doing, and you know what sort of outside resources are you using as part of this?
Caitlin Vaughn 45:32
I appreciate that. And you know, I feel like, I think that this, you’re the star. I feel like this is going to be one of those moments where five years from now, people are going to go, Well, duh, but it law. Law firms are slow to innovate in the training space because of our apprenticeship model. So we rolled out a program this year as a pilot program called the first year development program, which I know is a very original title, um, but basically, rather than continue with the traditional model that law firms have historically had of you get your incoming first year class. You do a week or two of sort of boot camp, or, you know, introductions, and they figure out where their office is and how to use the printer, and then you drop them into billable work, and you assume that they’re going to alert do some combination of learning on the job and sprinkling in ongoing series which they may or may not come to because they may or may not have billable work that takes precedence. We decided that we were going to flip the model, and so what we did was that we follow that. We took the first years and for about eight and a half weeks, we did a full time training program, which is much more akin to what corporations do, right? I mean, you wouldn’t think to put somebody on an auto plant assembly line and just say, like, well, we gave you a day of instructional training. So go forth and make cars. When we think about that, it’s a it’s a model that very much looks more like a corporate model. What we did during those eight to nine full time training weeks is that we took approximately 40 hours a week. We ran programming on a variety of both technical and professional skills. We ran a mini MBA program that took about one day a week with homework in between sessions that’s in partnership with a company called ability that does highly interactive, sort of gamified learning. We ran highly interactive technical skills programming that was designed to simulate either litigation cases or corporate transactions, and we incorporated asynchronous learning in both pre work and post work. So we would run a live session, and beforehand we would run, we would assign them hotshot learning. We would run the live session that would be highly interactive. They do some work in small groups, live in their office to Adam’s earlier point, working together on a deliverable. That deliverable would be submitted, the deliverable would be reviewed by more senior attorneys, so they got feedback on that, and we would do reinforcement with other both hotshot work and also a company called practio that does, I don’t know if you guys know Michael bloom. You probably do. You know work that was basically like reinforcement of that learning. Because what we know from adult learning theory is that being told a piece of information or being told how to ride a bike, so to speak, is the least effective way of retaining that knowledge. The most effective way is to be told to play with that skill set, or to do that skill set, and then to be reinforced again once you’ve done it, once all of that’s woven together so that there’s live and asynchronous content on the technical skills piece. But in addition to the technical skills, we also ran highly interactive professional skills programming. So we ran people management, matter management, relationship mastery. We ran an innovation challenge that utilized Design Thinking principles, actually, to talk about this exact topic around how we are going to incorporate Gen AI into work streams from professional development to client service delivery. And we also ran sessions on emotional intelligence. We teach a system here called type coach, which is a Myers Briggs Type Indicator, modified version that’s used with professional services firms, and it is one of the ways that we’re trying to hack teaming by helping people understand from an. Emotional intelligence perspective, the working across difference challenge, which I think with lawyers, is particularly acute because we are such a people centric business. The key thing that I would say there is we didn’t say we have outside resources and inside programming. We wove the two together so that it was as seamless an experience for the end user as possible. We’ve gotten really positive reviews on the content, and we’re planning on running it again for the class of 2024, so watch this space.
Marlene Gebauer 50:31
That’s great, man, I could tell you it’s like as a first year associate, I would have loved to have something like this.
Adam Stofsky 50:39
We associate. A good win. That was That sounds kind of amazing.
Ian Nelson 50:42
It’s really cool. It’s really great. The companies they created, it’s all really fun, and some great so they put a lot of work into this. Some
Caitlin Vaughn 50:50
Caitlin Maria is an underrated trading training technique, right? Like making it money is something that I think helps people suspend more engaging.
Marlene Gebauer 51:01
It’s more engaging. All right. So Caitlin, I want to switch a little bit we were talking about first years. Now. I want to talk about lateral hires, because they face different challenges. You know, when they’re coming to a new firm’s culture and workflows like they they sort of know what they know, and it might be very different sort of coming into to a new firm. So, you know, how do you help address these challenges for the laterals at Goodwin? You know, what specific methods or resources, you know, have you leveraged to help them integrate smoothly?
Caitlin Vaughn 51:33
Absolutely, you know, I’ll talk a little bit about the technical piece, and I’ll talk a little bit about the cultural, social interaction piece, integration piece, one of the best things that we’ve done from a technical perspective for lateral integration is that we’ve developed technical core competencies for each of our practice areas. One of the biggest challenges that we find with lateral hires is that no matter how great the person’s previous experience, there’s never a 100% overlap between what we would expect from a homegrown associate and the type of experience that a lateral is going to have. That’s just sort of the way, the way that the world works, right. And by creating technical competencies to be able to say, well, by a fourth year associate, we would have expected them to have done X number of y transactions, or y number of, you know this particular phase of litigation, it’s given us a better ability to pinpoint where gaps and opportunities are for our laterals, so that we’re setting them off on the right foot when they’re getting their first assignments. In other words, we’re not staffing them exactly the way we would staff a homegrown because they’re going to have different strengths and development opportunities, and so we’re trying to make sure that we’re creating a good first impression, getting those that early buy in from the people who interviewed them and who were instrumental in their hire. The other thing that we have at Goodwin, that I think is a real talent differentiator, is we have an amazing attorney development team that’s different than the learning and professional development team. Our model in learning and professional development is sort of a few to many, right? We train at scale the attorney development team. Their role is to staff and develop individual attorneys with a very one to one relationship, and they’re instrumental in integrating our laterals, not only into workflows, because that’s one of the things that they oversee, is that they have a we have a centralized staffing process, but also to make sure that they’re creating social and professional connections within the firm. They have buddies, they assign mentors, they help ensure that partner advisors are meeting early and often with our laterals. We also have a good one experience, as I said earlier, a good one experience team, that’s our talent experience team, and one of the things that they’ve done is to make more deliberate social interactions for our lateral hires. So there are lateral touch points where you know all of the laterals from a given cohort are coming together and sort of talking about their experience. And we run a series of new higher touch points, both in person and survey based, to ensure that no one feels like they’re falling through the cracks. It’s always, you know, a function as well of the individual, you know, ability to sort of think about how they want to be deliberate in the lateral process. In other words, what are their goals coming into a new firm? And we talk a lot about that, and our ADMS, our attorney development managers and our career coaching function have pretty regular touch points to make sure that the laterals feel like they are not only meeting our expectations, but they’re meeting their own goals in in making this change.
Greg Lambert 54:51
Let me wrap that up, because Caitlin just said two very impressive programs that she’s got going on. Adam and Ian, I’ll let you guys have the last word before we get to the crystal ball. Question. How do you approach this kind of expectation? I mean the current expectation that you can throw a first year associate into the deep end. And to that, you just expect laterals to come over and you know, with magic, suddenly, you know, fit the the the culture in the workflow of of the new firm. So how do you guys approach that when, when firms come to you with these kinds of questions, yeah.
Adam Stofsky 55:44
And this is more your warehouse, Ian. You take it,
Ian Nelson 55:47
Yeah, sure. You know, one depends who we’re talking to. I think the conversation differs on firm, on on role, all that business when it comes to the economics of it. You know that clients used to pay for that time, for the first year to be scrambling, and the concern of whether someone was stressed out and freaked out wasn’t a huge deal. It made a lot of money because of firms, and client subsidizing training was just part of the deal. But I think that that has that is Luckily in the past, and I think that now firms are saying, Look, how can we best support these junior lawyers, and how do we make them feel? You know, seen and heard and associates are speaking up for themselves. We want better training. So there’s just more of a recognition that, why not offer support to people and economically, they just need to be up to speed much, much faster in more sophisticated ways. So I think the conversation differs. But I think there’s this recognition that more and better training is needed for a host of reasons. When it comes to the the laterals and the mid bubbles, those conversations are more Well, let’s look at, as Caitlin said, let’s look at the needs. Let’s create some custom learning paths here to fill the gaps, because there might not be a boot camp for that group. It might be well shoot. You know that that 50 year M and A lawyer may have done public work their whole career, but then they’re put on a private asset deal and they don’t, they don’t know, or vice versa, so it’s sort of that safe based training. Or maybe, you know, someone doesn’t eat through the system and doesn’t understand financial statements, but they’re not going to show up at a boot camp. So how do we help support that learning? What resources do they need? So it’s a much more one to one approach, and those are the kind of conversations that we have when it comes to those populations. Yeah,
Adam Stofsky 57:29
I agree with everything Ian said. I think the way I like to think about this, and again, this is across in house, companies, even nonprofit organizations, firms. I think the focuses need to be on investing in more custom content. This is not exactly what I would love to build a subscription where we could just, like, get tons of subscribers off the same content and scale up, but I just don’t know if that’s where things are going, both because of the availability of technology that makes it easy for us to make custom content at scale and keep it up to date. Like, the way I, you know, talked about before, but also, just like, organizations are so complex, I think this is a need for custom content. And really critically, it needs to be good, right? There’s no reason why training should be bad, and there’s a lot of bad training out there. It’s great to hear, like, obviously knowing about products like hotshot, hearing what Caitlin’s doing, like, it’s great to see this out there, but there’s a lot of bad training out there, and people don’t like it. It’s boring, and it should be better. And I think everyone, we owe it to our colleagues and employees to provide them with training that’s actually kind of fun and engaging and interesting, using things like humor, as as Caitlin said. And one last thing I’ll say just about kind of generally onboarding anyone. It’s like, I think we need to think about how we just pace out delivering content to people. You know, I’ve just talked to someone that at a big company, and they say they were giving their new people, like, 50 hours of onboarding training, and it’s all like, you spend the first two weeks of work, just like watching all this stuff, and it’s these hour two, hour long, like talking head, kind of, I mean, they’re not even shot with good cameras and mics. So it’s just like this horrible experience, kind of, finding creative ways to pace it out, to let people learn in a way that’s a little more reasonable. So, yeah, customization, quality, pacing, those are the, I think that the principles to apply to this.
Marlene Gebauer 59:24
Okay, so we are at the point in the podcast where we’re going to have the crystal ball question for each of you. So what do you see as a change or challenge when it comes to Attorney training over the next two to five years? And let’s see. I’ll start with
Ian Nelson 59:39
Ian. Oh, okay, boy. I think everyone’s coming around to hopefully this a real opportunity here. You know, challenge will be getting everyone on board with that, adopting a culture of learning and training. But I think the opportunity, which is also a challenge, is rethinking how we’re training at. All organizations away from the show up, have a semi decent sandwich and maybe a good cookie and listen to much more interactive, much more experiential. Upping everyone’s skills is, I think, the biggest opportunity here, and as Katelyn said, making it all integrated, rather than a collection of random things put together. So I think, I think that’s where things are going to be headed. Much more personalized, integrated, experiential.
Adam Stofsky 1:00:25
Yeah, I totally agree. If I can crystal ball here, do I get the same question Marlene and yes, same
Marlene Gebauer 1:00:31
question for all of you.
Adam Stofsky 1:00:33
So yeah, I think it more. I think the biggest challenge, I agree with everything Ian said. There’s huge opportunities here, but I think the biggest challenge is going to be managing the pace of change, both in terms of substantive law and regulation and technology, but also, like tastes, right? Like, what do people like watching this changes really fast. We have this whole Tiktok generation coming up and, you know, so that’s really, really, I think that’s the biggest challenge, but it’s also an opportunity to then make better to then make better, more customized training.
Marlene Gebauer 1:01:07
And Caitlin, you will have the last word.
Caitlin Vaughn 1:01:12
So Nathan says the author of the book adaptive leadership, and one of the things that he does is define adaptive leadership as as managing through change at a pace that people can accept. And one of the challenges with working with lawyers is that lawyers are very traditional. They are slow to change, and we’re going to be in an environment in which change is going to come very rapidly. I think the biggest challenge that we’re going to face is convincing our lawyers that we’re going to have to jump before we know what’s at the bottom right. In other words, we’re going to have to be able to say we’re going to make changes. And we don’t know what the end state is going to be, but we know it’s going to be different than what the end state is now. Right? I think the opportunity that that creates, though, is the ability to break a pedagogical model, both at law schools and at law firms, that, frankly, hasn’t been inclusive and hasn’t been as successful as we would all like it to be. In other words, the apprenticeship model never consistently worked, and now it works even less well. So let’s break it and build something better in a model that is going to be resilient for the next 100 years, the same way that the model that we’ve historically used has worked for 100 years. So I think it’s a real opportunity for us and also a real challenge to help our leaders feel like just because it’s going to be different than their experience doesn’t mean that it’s going to be worse. It just means it’s going to be different.
Greg Lambert 1:02:50
Well, very good. So Adam stofsky, Ian Nelson and Caitlin Vaughn, I want to thank all of you for coming in and talking to us here on the geek in review. Thank you.
Adam Stofsky 1:03:01
Thanks. Greg, thanks. Marlene,
Ian Nelson 1:03:03
Thank you.
Caitlin Vaughn 1:03:04
Thank you.
Marlene Gebauer 1:03:05
And of course, thanks to all of you our listeners for taking the time to listen to the geek and review podcast. If you enjoyed the show, share it with a colleague. We’d love to hear from you. So reach out to us on LinkedIn. Yes. Do you have any particular place that you would like to point listeners to learn more or reach out to you.
Ian Nelson 1:03:26
I’ll jump in if this is Ian. If anyone wants to reach me, my contact me by email, Ian, I A N at hotshotlegal.com or through our website, hotshotlegal.com thank you,
Adam Stofsky 1:03:39
And you can find me at check out briefly. At briefly. Now.com, and you can just reach out to me. Adam at, briefly, now.com, we’re also very active on LinkedIn, so you can find me there, mostly through my personal account. Adam stopski,
Greg Lambert 1:03:53
great and Caitlin, and
Caitlin Vaughn 1:03:56
if you’re looking for more for me, you are welcome to reach out to me via LinkedIn, I’m publicly available. Caitlyn Vaughn, a good one.
Marlene Gebauer 1:04:06
And as always, the music you hear is from Jerry. David De Sica, thank you, Jerry. Thanks, Jerry.
Greg Lambert 1:04:11
All right, Marlene, I’ll talk to you later.
Marlene Gebauer 1:04:12
Okay, bye, bye.