Few people understand the intersection of legal practice, data analytics, and diversity like Catherine Krow, Managing Director of Diversity and Impact Analytics at BigHand. In this episode of The Geek in Review, hosts Greg Lambert and Marlene Gebauer sit down with Krow to trace her journey from a high-powered trial lawyer to an influential legal tech leader. After seventeen years at firms like Orrick and Simpson Thacher, Krow’s turning point came when a client challenged her team’s billing after a major courtroom victory—a moment that sparked her mission to fix what she calls the “business of law.”

That single moment led to the creation of Digitory Legal, a company designed to give law firms the data and transparency they desperately needed but didn’t yet value. Krow describes how her framework—plan, measure, refine—became the basis for improving cost predictability and strengthening client trust. When BigHand acquired Digitory Legal in 2022, Krow’s vision found a larger stage. Now, her “data refinery” powers better pricing, resource allocation, and even equity within firms. As she explains, clean data doesn’t only improve profitability, it reveals hidden inequities in work allocation and helps firms retain their most promising talent.

Krow also digs into one of her favorite topics: “data debt.” Law firms are drowning in data but starved for information. She explains how poor data hygiene—like inconsistent time codes and messy narratives—has left firms unable to use their most valuable resource. BigHand’s impact analytics tools attack this problem head-on, transforming raw billing data into usable intelligence that drives decision-making across finance, staffing, and diversity efforts. And while the technology is powerful, Krow is clear that solving data debt is as much a cultural challenge as it is a technical one.

Another major theme is the evolving role of business professionals within law firms. Krow argues that lawyers’ traditional discomfort with financial forecasting and project management is holding firms back. Her solution? Combine legal expertise with the commercial acumen of allied professionals. Together, they can meet client demands for budgets, accountability, and measurable value—especially as AI begins to reshape how legal services are delivered and priced.

The episode closes with Krow’s broader reflection on the next decade of legal innovation. She warns that the biggest shift ahead isn’t about AI or analytics—it’s about mindset. Firms that embrace data-driven decision-making now will define the future of law; those that don’t will be left behind. Through her work at BigHand, Krow is helping to ensure that future is both more efficient and more equitable.

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[Special Thanks to ⁠Legal Technology Hub⁠ for their sponsoring this episode.]

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Email: geekinreviewpodcast@gmail.com
Music: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Jerry David DeCicca⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Transcript:

Greg Lambert (00:00)
Hey everyone, I’m Greg Lambert with The Geek in Review and I am here with Stephanie Wilkins from Legal Technology Hub who is going to talk to us about the events calendar there at LTH. So Stephanie, take it away.

Stephanie Wilkins (00:14)
Hi Greg, thanks for having me. And yeah, it’s back to conference season. I mean, we have all the kids going back to school, but the grownups are back to the events. And if your LinkedIn feed looks anything like mine, you’re seeing a lot of people back in the conference, in the exhibit halls, on the panels. And we’re really just getting started. You know, we have the spring and the fall busy seasons, but we’re really gearing up for really busy Septembers, Octobers, Novembers. And I just sort of wrote in a recent column of mine that…

There seem to be more conference choices than ever this fall. We’re seeing a lot of brand new conferences hit the event scene that are catering to either new geographies or industry niches or client bases. And while some of us seem to be regulars on the conference circuit, there might be others out there that are venturing out for the first time, which I really think is a great thing because there’s never been a better time than during the gen AI era to learn about technology and really get your hands dirty. So if you are someone who’s not familiar with your conference options or

what might be right near you or what fits your schedule, Legal Tech Hub maintains a Legal Tech Industry Events calendar that everyone can access for free. And this isn’t just Legal Tech Hub events, even though you can find those on our site as well, and we do encourage you to attend them. But this is a calendar of all the events we hear about in the Legal Tech Industry that are open for public registration. You can find it at legaltechnologyhub.com\events Or if you’re on the main Legal Tech Hub page, you’ll see a tab at the top called Events.

It has a drop down menu where you’ll find both our events and then the industry events calendar in general. And if you’re hosting an event that you don’t see on our calendar and you want us to add it, we want to know that too. There’s a easy submit event button at the bottom of the calendar page. So it’s that simple. Click submit event. We’ll add it to our calendar so other people can find it and attend your event. And so happy conference season everyone. And we hope to see you at the next one.

Yes, also take care of yourselves. Don’t do too many. Take some rest, drink some water.

Greg Lambert (02:10)
There you go, there you go. All right, thanks Stephanie.

Marlene Gebauer (02:21)
Welcome to the geek and review the podcast focused on innovative and creative ideas in the legal industry. I’m Marlene Gebauer So this week on the geek and review, we are excited to welcome Catherine Krow managing director of diversity and impact analytics at BigHand Catherine’s career path is really compelling. she has transitioned from 17 years as an elite trial lawyer at top firms like Orrick and Simpson Thatcher.

Greg Lambert (02:27)
and I’m Greg Lambert.

Marlene Gebauer (02:48)
to a legal tech leader. Her journey was sparked by a pivotal moment in her practice that revealed a systematic issue she termed data debt.

Greg Lambert (02:57)
Yeah, well, luckily, Catherine started a career when she was 12. well, So, so her work there led to the founding of Digitory Legal and award-winning AI platform focused on financial transparency and data-driven decision-making and law, which is what we always want to do.

Marlene Gebauer (03:01)
Hahaha.

Catherine Krow (03:03)
Thank you for noticing that, my friend.

Marlene Gebauer (03:07)
We do like to point those things out.

Greg Lambert (03:25)
The company later discovered that the same data used to analyze the cost analytics could also be used as a powerful tool for diversity, equity, and inclusion and for talent retention by tracking career enhancing work. And so now as a part of BigHand her work has been recognized with numerous awards, including the 2024 Legal Week Leaders in Tech Award for championing

Diversity and Technology. Congratulations, Catherine

Marlene Gebauer (03:55)
Yay.

Catherine Krow (03:59)
Thank you and thank you.

Marlene Gebauer (04:00)
So Catherine Krow,

welcome to the Geek in Review.

Catherine Krow (04:03)
Thank you so much

for having me. We’ve been talking about this for, yes, and I am a huge fan and I’m very, very excited.

Marlene Gebauer (04:07)
talking about this for literally years.

Greg Lambert (04:07)
We’ve been.

Marlene Gebauer (04:17)
Uh, you have a distinguished 17 year career as a litigation partner and you’ve described a specific moment, uh, winning a major case only to have the client push back on the final bill as, a catalyst. Yeah, that never happens. Could you, could you walk us through that inciting incident and, and how you shifted focus from your practice of law to the fixing the business of law?

Catherine Krow (04:34)
I’m sorry.

yeah, I remember that moment quite vividly. I’d just come off a three month trial, one of those cases that consumes the every fiber of your being and every moment. And we crushed it. Total defense verdict exceeded everyone’s expectations, massive celebrations and that.

Marlene Gebauer (04:47)
you

Catherine Krow (05:09)
shortly thereafter. You know, an up and coming lawyer had not managed the case, didn’t know this new lawyer wasn’t part of the trial team, pushed back on the bill. So we’re like, today that happens all the time. Back then, under those circumstances, no, not so much. It was pretty unheard of. And, you know, I remember thinking to myself, all right,

So from an outcome perspective and from a practice perspective, we hit the cover off the ball. Something’s still broken. What’s going on here? And that’s when I started to think a little bit differently. So the effect of that, it took a little bit of time, but I started to zoom out and realize, all right, doing the exceptional legal work,

isn’t enough. If you’re not good at the business of law, you’re not really a trusted advisor in the sense that clients then needed you to be. So I started thinking about scoping and budgeting and project managing and giving clients transparency and predictability because I thought

correctly as it turns out, and I have data and we all know I’m a data geek. that would be a win-win. And from there, I started thinking about a framework, pillars, plan, measure, refine. So plan, budget rigorously, scope staffing at the buying moment was what I call it now.

the moment where the client decides to trust you with that engagement measure, because that which gets measured gets managed. And then refine, use data to constantly look at how you did to optimize your resources, to predict better pricing, past what things did cost, to…

what they should cost and that technology did not exist. So in order to see that vision through, I had to stop practicing law and build technology that made those solutions possible, which is, you know, I told you I was right. So combining with

BigHand years later to take this, accelerate what we have done, bring it to the market in such a more powerful way, broader way. They believed too that this is a win-win. And their 2025 data, BigHand does market research.

just came out and 99 % of the 800 plus respondents confirmed that matters with budgets have higher realization. So to come full circle, I have landed at a place that believed in my vision and is helping me execute all three pillars in a way that is in fact.

a win-win for both clients and law firms. So that was moment two fixing the businesses.

Marlene Gebauer (08:55)
It’s a good origin story. It’s a good origin story.

Greg Lambert (08:56)
Yeah.

Now, you kind of refer to this kind of lack of budgeting and managing the process as kind of a snowflake problem in the legal industry. And especially when I think, when people think traditionally about litigation matters, the old question of, how much is this gonna cost?

Catherine Krow (09:04)
you

Greg Lambert (09:23)
inevitably comes back with the great answer of, it depends. But you’re saying that that’s no longer really an option or at least a viable option for an answer to that question. Can you explain a little bit more about the snowflake problem that you’ve discovered?

Catherine Krow (09:27)
you

No,

well, so nothing worth doing is ever easy, is it? So the snowflake problem, it’s very real. I saw it everywhere, that belief deeply ingrained and sort of indoctrinated in you from law school forward, that every case is really unique. You can’t predict it. It’s one of a kind, you know, a snowflake. So, you know,

Marlene Gebauer (09:48)
Hahaha.

Catherine Krow (10:12)
There’s no way to answer that how much predict or compare. So it depends was typically the answer and You know what? Works like for for a really long time it worked. So there was no particular reason to dig in and try and do better Exactly And then

Marlene Gebauer (10:32)
Nobody was forcing the issue, you know, it’s like, okay.

Catherine Krow (10:36)
then it didn’t work. So forgive me for the history lesson, but I’m just going to kind of dig back to where the origin was and then fast forward. What changed? OK, so after the 2009 financial crisis, the sort of comfort zone disappeared and the

Greg Lambert (10:43)
Yeah, because that was going to be my question was what caused that?

Marlene Gebauer (10:45)
Yeah, yeah.

Catherine Krow (11:00)
Corporate legal teams started to get the same questions every other department had gotten from the CFO. What’s your budget? Forecast your spend? Manage to it? I want to see value. And then we got procurement and the rise of legal operations. Sharper, harder questions. Not just how much, but how do you know?

within law firms, the discipline of pricing and project management, now it started to gain momentum, gain prominence. so moments like the awkward one that I described as mine, the moment of tension for those that were becoming good at it is now an opportunity to demonstrate commercial

acumen and really speak the language of the business that clients could then give to the CFO. So fast forward to today and you know the the market research I just referred to that the 2025 report is showing we’re still seeing a lot of budget pressure. More than half of the firms are saying it’s increasing but we’re also seeing a lot of

opportunity to do it better because also about 55 % I think of firms are saying they’re only really doing it on 20 % of their matters. So this is a moment. Realization goes up when you budget. This is a moment for law firms to grab the opportunity to

take and own that buying moment with their clients and answer that question with a different level of precision, back it by data, and don’t give it depends. Give them what the CFO needs and build trust and transparency. So long-winded answer to basically say,

It’s not a snowflake or it might be a snowflake, but you can do more to answer the CFO’s questions and therefore serve your client than say it depends.

Greg Lambert (13:18)
Let me, we were joking before we got on that I was gonna use this. Let me pull on that thread a little bit more there. So in 2025, what’s the number one reason that you hear from partners on why they don’t budget?

Catherine Krow (13:25)
You know you’re going to say that.

Mm-hmm.

It well, there’s a discomfort. So I almost went there. I almost did it. We don’t have the data or I can’t give that number. You know, they’re afraid to give the number because you can’t if you can’t justify it, you know, you might lose.

Greg Lambert (13:43)
It depends. What are you going to say?

Marlene Gebauer (13:46)
I can think of a few things.

Catherine Krow (14:06)
But look, this is not partners comfort zone. This is not a place where they should feel comfortable at this point. Now, commercial acumen, if I were to give one piece of advice to any lawyer, get some. It’s the same advice I would give to founders as we’ll get there.

the data shows that we’re not doing enough of training our lawyers around the business of law. So you hear a lot of it’s discomfort around business and it gets framed in a lot of reasons. ⁓ and on the client they won’t give us a budget. They won’t do it. They won’t take the work. Yes, they will.

Turns out they will. And we’ve got a huge rise of allied business professionals hiring more than ever before. We aren’t seeing enough purchasing of technology to enable them, but that’s changing as well. can be a lot of reasons, but it really boils down to.

Lawyers weren’t trained on this and it’s an uncomfortable thing, but the beauty of allied business professionals is that they can handle those questions.

Marlene Gebauer (15:30)
So it’s, sounds like maybe the allied business professionals are solution as opposed to, trying to, to get attorneys caught up in terms of, of the, the business acumen. or maybe it’s a combination of both. I don’t know.

Catherine Krow (15:35)
you

feel like it’s

a combination of both because if you don’t understand profitability, then, you know, project managing to your case, being able to see those numbers, being able to use business intelligence, go, my realization, my profitability, wait, why am I staffing it this way? And correct, course correct quickly, understanding the implications of that as, a business owner. I think that’s really important.

but an understanding that, you know, approvals do matter to your client, but you don’t have to be able to write them. You have allied business professionals to help you do that financial piece. So I think, Marlene, that combination is where I would land.

Marlene Gebauer (16:31)
Yeah.

I had a couple sort of follow ups on that. I’m just thinking in terms of the attorneys, when’s the best time to teach them that? I mean, is it in school? Is it when they get to a firm? So how do you, how do we build that in?

Greg Lambert (16:48)
Well, I was gonna,

let me add in here. I would say it’s a, I would say that 80 % of the partners who are in the firm today were not partners who were in the firm in 2009. I feel pretty comfortable in stating that number. So it sounds to me like this is a failure from the firm on a business scale of not.

making this part of the partner’s responsibility for the past 16 years. So that’s just my, I’ll get off my soap box now, so.

Catherine Krow (17:25)
I think there is an opportunity for firms, particularly as they have more allied business professionals who can teach commercial acumen basics to partners. It wasn’t offered. It wasn’t explained. And you can sort of do a little bit to upscale.

your up and coming next generation of business leaders who may be a little more savvy, especially as our world is shifting right now and there’s never been a better moment to re-examine your own ways of looking at things and perhaps take a more forward thinking approach to…

how you train and upscale the next generation of lawyers and partners.

Marlene Gebauer (18:15)
I’m also wondering if, if sort of how technology is, is sort of impacting, you charge for your services and because we’re in a situation right now where we don’t really know, like firms I think are trying to figure that out in terms of, of some of these, these new solutions, how is that going to impact what they’ve traditionally done and like how to price that?

Catherine Krow (18:33)
Mm-hmm.

Marlene Gebauer (18:42)
⁓ and value that, like, I’m wondering if that also plays a role in the, hesitancy.

Catherine Krow (18:49)
So that whole piece how do you price? What do you do? What we see, and there’s a section in the, it just came out last I’m enamored of data. I love market data. And there’s a section in the BigHand pricing and,

budgeting trends report that is an AI section. And it talks about this gap between adoption and then figuring out how to price. And I also spend a lot of time listening to what clients have to say, spending time being on panels with them and hearing them desire

a new kind of measuring ROI and value is there. I think it was cited in the report, Elizabeth Miller from Delta Dental was quoted, you we know the tools are there. expect you to use them. Leo Murgal from Salesforce, another comment. You know, it’s time for outcome based

pricing. Well, you really need data to do that. This is where BigHand and our data refinery, as it’s been called, our timecard analytics can really come in. was really being done and use business intelligence, matter pricing and data to quantify

what that change is and then use it to price. but it hasn’t happened yet. We’re just at the cusp and we’re seeing a real disconnect between those that are adopting tools and using data and those that are not. And I think that the chain, the

The divide is real it’s a moment to embrace data, embrace what it can do to empower your artificial intelligence strategy because the first rule of artificial intelligence is garbage in, garbage out. Get your data together, get your technology together.

I have many thoughts.

Marlene Gebauer (21:22)
very, but very insightful. And I mean, you’re, you know, firms are trying to catch up on that, that data train, right? ⁓ you built your company, you know, the core technology was to address data debt. And I’m, you know, I’m pretty sure I know where you’re going with that because I think all of us, all of us have experienced this and, and, our jobs, but for the listeners, you know, can you unpack what it means by that term and, know, why it’s important to fix it.

Catherine Krow (21:29)
Yeah.

You

And so when I talk about data debt, I’m really talking about the gap between how much data firms have, which is mountains of it, and how much they can actually use. So I heard it said, and I think it was Darth Vaughan did a TED talk years ago, I said the industry is data rich and information poor.

Marlene Gebauer (22:01)
and what they can actually use.

Greg Lambert (22:03)
you

Catherine Krow (22:17)
And that’s an effect of the data debt. there’s plenty of legal billing and time card data out there sitting on mountains, but it is very dirty. And that is because historically and industry wide data hygiene practices around things like using

⁓ codes to classify time and being really rigorous around what that structure looks like. That just hasn’t happened. That rigor wasn’t there historically or frankly even now. And that makes sense because the people writing the time narratives and coding the time of lawyers who should be focused on client work and not

data science. So it’s not really changing anytime soon, but as a result, the allied business professionals in law firms who need to use that data are faced with that information poor problem. So it’s sort of like, all right, I can see the cost of a house, but I don’t know if it had a roof on it or a basement or how many floors.

and someone coded my drywall is plumbing. So you try to use that information. It’s not only going to tell you not what you need to know, but it’s misinformation. It’ll tell you all the wrong things. that is the problem our core technology, our AI enabled timecard analytics.

I said AI, so I’ll get to that in a second. it was designed to solve. So the expert system takes those time narratives, classifies the pieces of work based on what the lawyers had into the code set, the industry standard code set, known as the uniform task-based management system codes.

But it’s sort of like your doctor puts a billing code next to what you do based on what you say. Same concept. We’re just as an industry, not bad at it, not great at it with humans, but technology can help. And we do not.

When I say AI enabled, I’m talking about an expert system, not generative AI. But generative AI, we think of this as the data science piece, right? If you’re going to do those really cool business of law use cases, you’ve got to solve your data debt before you can feed the model and actually get ROI out of the tools that you’re using because…

Right now, the barrier to entry for the great AI tools is the data set. We know how to build large language models. We know how to use generative AI. What you need to have is the right data.

Greg Lambert (25:24)
One of the benefits that I think we all uncover when we have good data is that it doesn’t just tell one story. There’s multiple stories that can be gleaned from data that actually is good data. And one of those that you found was that this also helped,

in a completely different way, and that was essentially in talent retention. And you were able to track what you defined as career enhancing work for lawyers that they could discover along the way. talk to us a little bit more about find that you were able to uncover as you were going through cleaning up the data

And how did that change the conversation that you were having with law firm leaders about it?

Catherine Krow (26:10)
And so.

The discovery, when I started out, I didn’t start out with a focus on talent retention or DEI. I wanted to build a better budgeting tool. make cost management more transparent and connect lawyers and clients on those communications. But as we analyzed more and more

data, you know, you can’t help it. I started to see patterns again and again. And, you know, what looks like balanced and efficient work allocation on paper underneath, there would often be a different reality. And so the aha moments came again and again. So

Two lawyers, similar and rates, working similar amount of hours, all billing that work to the same code. For data geeks like me, that was probably L120 analysis and strategy. Again, nothing nefarious. What isn’t analysis and strategy, but not so helpful when you’re trying to figure out who did what and whether it’s career advancing.

So on paper, it would look equitable and efficient. When you unpack that data and reclassify it, was below the surface could be very different with one lawyer doing much more career-advancing work that you can talk about in an interview and another doing

tasks that were not resume building and didn’t showcase skills as a lawyer. And that effect can be cumulative and lead to burnout or a need to move on. What we at BigHand now call the million dollar problem because it’s attrition. It costs a million dollars to lose a third year associate. So and that’s before all of the other costs of

What if the others go and what if your clients move? That kind of attrition is expensive. So the data, once you’ve sorted out and you understand who’s doing what, now you you can project intervene, you can develop talent before that talent walks out the door.

a whole new purpose. The same data that drives profitability can also drive equity and talent retention. And I think these are not separate goals. Equitable work allocation creates stronger teams and better results and healthier firms and

DEI can feel like a loaded term these days, I acknowledge that. But it still matters. It matters deeply. Not as a box checking exercise, but because diverse teams, by that I mean different perspectives, different backgrounds and embracing difference. Better insight, stronger strategy and better outcomes.

Profitability and equity are interrelated. And a rising tide really does lift all boats. That’s my personal view.

Marlene Gebauer (29:33)
So Catherine, I want to talk a little bit about your move to BigHand. So in, in 2022, Digitory was acquired by BigHand and now you are there leading the, the impact analytics team. So strategically, like how does the AI powered technology act as like a data refinery for, for BigHand’s broader suite of financial and resourcing tools and

Catherine Krow (29:38)
Thank

Marlene Gebauer (30:00)
How has being part of like a larger platform with sort of this massive market share accelerated your mission?

Catherine Krow (30:07)
So many fun things to talk about in there. So I’m going to go strategy and I know your listeners nuts and bolts how it works and then when when Digitory was acquired by BigHand, it was really a natural evolution and we rebranded promptly.

Marlene Gebauer (30:09)
I know!

Greg Lambert (30:10)
Yeah

Marlene Gebauer (30:13)
It’s all good stuff.

Catherine Krow (30:33)
from digital to impact analytics because it’s what we do. Our technology turns raw data, refines data into insights that makes a difference. So data that makes a difference. And what started as a cost analytics tool

way back when is now part of an end-to-end platform that includes and crosses over financial productivity tools and people productivity tools. So I feel like when we came together, gave my team and my business the opportunity to move from a point solution to a strategic partner.

So that’s the strategy Nuts and bolts, how is it integrated and to what? So the impact analytics data is integrated into matter pricing. And that means that seamlessly as managing, the data can get coded into the right phase and task, and you’re actually managing against the right work. So you can see what’s.

what’s happening in real time. It also means that your historical data can be now used as information to price future matters with precision. And in business intelligence, it’s connected to other metrics and pulls together recoded timecard data.

with other data from the firm, other financial data. So you can see quickly efficiency issues, equity issues. I need to restaff this very promptly. And it works in conjunction with resource management. That’s the people productivity. Resource management allocates work to

lawyers and with our data it augments the mindful staffing and the ability to understand who did what and think through not just assignments currently but in the future who’s getting who’s getting what work. So that’s the nuts and bolts. The third part of that was

You are correct that has accelerated the mission. The scale, the reach, we’re now in top tier law firms and Fortune 500 companies and delivering impact. My mission now is to really continue that acceleration AI adoption and

what’s happening now in the market. More firms are engaging than ever in the data conversation. So this is a moment for us to be ground floor. Part of what I see as historical, we’re uniquely positioned to help our customers power smarter pricing, resourcing and performance decisions.

at scale and take ⁓ hold of this moment and differentiate themselves for the future, future proof using data.

Greg Lambert (33:59)
wanna, before we wrap up, I wanted to bring up one thing while you’re here, and that is, ⁓ over the years, you’ve talked and you’ve written about the issue that you faced as being a woman founder in this industry, and I think it’s not just this industry, but we’ll focus in on that for right now. And you talk about your experience in,

Catherine Krow (33:59)
Thank you.

Greg Lambert (34:23)
getting funding and navigating the whole funding landscape. So with your experience, if you had a piece of advice to give others that are women that are in this industry that are looking for funding, what kind of advice would you give them?

Catherine Krow (34:40)
So, you know, it was tough. It was tough. The numbers are bleak. They were back then. 2 % of the funding goes to female founders. And, you know, I personally…

was not successful in getting VC funding. I got where I am based on angels who believed in me. But that was difficult, but it also gave me control over my destiny. And so what I thought was the path that I should go probably wasn’t. I ended up, it ended up being right. So the

Advice I would give is that there’s no single route to success. And the same thing I advise I would give to lawyers, build commercial acumen. You’ve got to speak the language. I wasn’t great at it. I mean, it took a lot of work and the front end I should have put in. my regret. Build commercial acumen.

but also nurture relationships and stay open to the right fit. When BigHand came around, I knew them. I respected their leadership. They were the right fit. And had I taken the VC funding route, I wouldn’t have been able to quickly make that decision. This is the right place for me. They will take my vision to the next.

Greg Lambert (36:12)
Before we get to the crystal ball question, there’s so much going on in the industry, obviously. It almost doesn’t matter what your niche is. So we’ve been asking our guests, what are some resources that you go to that help you kind of keep up with all of the change that’s going on?

Catherine Krow (36:21)
Thank

So, look, I frame everything that I do in terms of staying on top of things from a macro perspective. first, I look at the law firm market, the legal department market, and the macro market because the client’s client. So I consume data.

published reports, podcasts like this, our market resources, I can name a million, but I will miss so many. But some of the best insight comes from being in the market. So conversations that you have, these conversations, College of Law Practice Management, trade organizations, LVN, Legal Week, with all, again, I’m not gonna…

do this justice. So those are the resources I go to and I’m fortunate. Look, I look internally and inside business, inside BigHand, I’m constantly learning from Eric Wengler is our markets head and I have so much respect for him.

Green McCrory, our chief marketing officer, we talk all the time about the market. We pull in what they’re looking at, what I’m looking at. And those conversations internally from people I respect, they turn into conversations and strategy and thought leadership. And in all of those conversations, we bring curiosity.

So the best insight, even for a data junkie like me, comes from listening to clients, to peers, to data, and being relentlessly curious. resources are people, and they are what you make of them, because you want to pull on that thread, Greg.

Greg Lambert (38:23)
Ha ha ha ha.

Marlene Gebauer (38:27)
All right, so Catherine, looking into your crystal ball, what would you say is the single biggest structural change that you believe data analytics, both for profitability and for talent management, will force upon the legal professions business model? And are we prepared?

Catherine Krow (38:46)
So you know this is not an easy question, right? So thank you for that. So I come back, I always come back when I’m thinking about the future in the legal industry to Bill Gates line, we overestimate the change that will happen in two years and underestimate the change that will happen in 10 and.

Marlene Gebauer (38:48)
Yeah, we know.

Greg Lambert (38:52)
It was easy for us to write.

Marlene Gebauer (38:54)
like simple.

Catherine Krow (39:12)
I think that captures where the legal industry stands today. Data analytics is reshaping how firms operate, but the biggest transformation I had, think, we need to keep an eye on, isn’t about the technology. It’s At LVNX, there was a discussion about crisis

of distrust. And that’s the paradox we’re in because law firms and legal departments, want the ROI proven. want everything handed to them. want, but you don’t, they want to know when, what did somebody else do? Okay. But you’re not going to be able to get that, improve that ROI until you try it and you get your data house in order.

And you can’t just wait for keeping up with the Joneses. So look, the business models are going to have to change in order for the profits to keep flowing in the way law firms have become accustomed to. And I used to be a lawyer, so they earn every cent. But if you’re not adapting now, you’re

your

You’re wrong. It’s going, it’s coming. And like a big and we are turning that future into something measurable using data to help firms measure that ROI. But the divide between those who are future proofing and getting the foundation in place and those that are not is widening. And I think it’s

It’s firms that focus on data and their foundation and moving now that will define the next decade of law and those that ignore that foundational move and just wait and see will be left behind.

Greg Lambert (41:07)
⁓ I used a…

Catherine Krow (41:07)
So that’s a long answer to a hard question.

Greg Lambert (41:10)
Well, I used Bill Gates’ quote earlier today, and that was, you’ll never need more than 640K of RAM. ⁓ I think your quote actually works a lot better and makes them look a lot more precedent. So, Catherine Krow from BigHand, want to thank you very much for taking time to talk with us today. As always, it’s pleasure talking to you.

Catherine Krow (41:18)
Yeah. ⁓

you

Marlene Gebauer (41:33)
Yeah, thank you, Catherine. This has been terrific.

Catherine Krow (41:33)
A

pleasure was mine. Thank you again for having me on.

Marlene Gebauer (41:41)
And thanks to all of you, our listeners, for taking the time to listen to the Geek in Review podcast. If you enjoyed the show, please share it with a colleague. We’d love to hear from you on LinkedIn and TikTok.

Greg Lambert (41:51)
And Catherine, for listeners who want to learn more about your work and your work there at BigHand Impact Analytics, where’s the best place for them to go?

Catherine Krow (42:01)
BigHand.com you can find us under solutions, impact analytics, and some of the resources that I described and you know if you want to read my ramblings as well there’s a section on white papers and that has some great market research in

Marlene Gebauer (42:21)
And as always, the music you hear is from Jerry David DeCicca Thank you, Jerry. Bye.

Greg Lambert (42:26)
Thanks, Jerry. Bye, everyone.