The Geek In Review Ep. 52 – Andie Kramer and Al Harris on Their New Book, It’s Not You, It’s the Workplace

While we could talk all day with the husband and wife team of Andie Kramer and Al Harris about being BigLaw Partners, it is their work on women’s conflicts and bias in the workplace which brings them on the show today. Andie and Al recently released their second book, It’s Not You, It’s the Workplace: Women’s Conflict at Work and the Bias That Built It. And we jump in with both feet to discuss how the workplace environment, even at law firms (or maybe, especially at law firms), is designed to place women in adversarial roles against one another. Andie and Al have mentored women, conducted speaking consultations, and have written books on the subject of gender communications for over 30 years. Because they bring both the female and male perspectives into this very difficult conversation, they pack a one-two punch for their audiences and definitely grab their attention. When we asked Al Harris how important it was for him to bring in men into this conversation, his answer was, “in a word… VERY!”

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Transcript

[00:00:00] Marlene Gebauer: Okay, here we go. Now you’re very small. Welcome to The Geek in Review, the podcast designed to cover the legal information profession with a slant toward technology and management. I’m Marlene Gebauer.

[00:00:28] Greg Lambert: And I’m Greg Lambert. So Marlene, coming up later in the episode, we have a talk with two big law partners about their experiences on teaching others the realities of bias and stereotypes towards women in the workplace. So Andie Kramer and Al Harris also discussed their new book with us, and it’s called It’s Not You, It’s the Workplace. And we had an absolutely fantastic discussion with them.

[00:00:53] Marlene Gebauer: Yeah, we certainly did, Greg. We also had someone take us up on last episode’s request to share stories from what your family thinks it is you do. The listener emailed us and said, when I got my first law library management job, my older brother said something about it being a glorified file clerk’s position. I know. With him being a political science professor, he should have known better.

[00:01:20] Greg Lambert: Yeah, he should have known better on that. I bet that made for an interesting Thanksgiving dinner that year.

[00:01:24] Marlene Gebauer: Yeah. No discussion about politics, religion, or librarians. That’s the rule.

[00:01:30] Greg Lambert: Amen. Well, if you have a story to share about what it is your family thinks it is you do all day, please share it with us by leaving either a voicemail at 713-487-7270 or by emailing us at geekinreviewpodcast at gmail.com. We’d love to share your story in an upcoming episode.

[00:01:53] Marlene Gebauer: And now for this week’s information inspiration. We have a nice long interview this week, Greg, so we’re keeping the inspiration short and sweet.

[00:02:05] Greg Lambert: Right, Greg? Well, that’s the plan. We’ll see if we can stick to it. So let me jump in. My inspiration this week ties directly into our discussion with Andie and Al. Inspiration this week ties directly into our discussion with Andy and Al. And that is the American Lawyer column from Vivia Chin titled, Hashtag Me Too, Backlash Is Not Going Away. So Marlene, we all know the Mike Pence rule, right? Right. All right. So for those living under a rock the past couple of years, it turns out that our vice president has a rule that he will not be in a meeting where he is alone with a female and that he won’t attend social meetings where alcohol is served unless his wife is accompanying him. Chin points out that the Pence rule is having an effect on the workplace. And since 2016, the amount of men who are reluctant to do things like hire attractive women or hire women for positions where there involves some type of interpersonal interaction, like travel, both of those are on the rise. So I don’t know.

[00:03:06] Marlene Gebauer: Yeah, that’s just terrible. It’s just terrible.

[00:03:09] Greg Lambert: To quote Chin, she says, it’s 2019. It’s freaking unbelievable. Good quote. Yeah. I couldn’t have said it better. So the rise in the number of men restricting their access to women in the workplace is also happening in the legal field. Working Mother magazine and the ABA did a survey which came back with a similar result. 56 percent of men said they were nervous or uncomfortable having one-on-one interactions with women in the workplace. 56 percent, Marlene. Geez. I don’t even know what to say to that.

[00:03:47] Speaker A: It gives me a headache. All right. We’ll talk more about this with Andy and Al in our interview, but I have to say that while I’m not particularly shocked by this, as my mom says, I’m highly disappointed in you. So come on, fellas. It’s 2019. It’s freaking unbelievable.

[00:04:11] Marlene Gebauer: My inspiration has to do with a new survey that’s out of in-house legal departments. The 2018 Gartner State of the Legal Function Survey examined features of cost-effective legal departments whose spending was in the lowest quartile of their peer group while managing a similar volume and portfolio of work. The Gartner survey of 140 in-house legal departments found that the most effective devote almost twice the budget to training and development than their higher cost peers. The study found that the most cost-effective legal departments spend a little over 2% more of their in-house budget on training and development compared to higher-cost peers who spend about 1%. The survey found that cost-effective legal departments also devote about 8% more of their total budgets to in-house staff salaries, training, information technology systems, and software compared with their higher-cost peers. The researchers concluded that investing in training helped increase productivity while not increasing headcount and led to a decrease in spending on expert or outside support. So what does this mean for law firms? Well, Michael Mayfield, the research director in Gartner’s Legal and Compliance Practice, said in a statement, Legal departments have a tendency to hand off complex work to outside counsel, but organizations can achieve significant cost savings by bringing this work in-house. He added, the rate for an in-house attorney is likely going to be significantly less than what outside counsel will bill. So lesson learned, invest in your people and your tech.

[00:05:44] Greg Lambert: All right, Marlene, we stuck to our rules this week and that is enough for this week’s Information Inspiration. Well, I cannot tell you how excited I am to get into this week’s interview. Andy Kramer and Al Harris were so interesting to talk to, and the discussion brought in a wide range of emotions, I think, for all of us, Marlene.

[00:06:11] Marlene Gebauer: Yeah, they absolutely did. And Andy and Al were fantastic. What I particularly appreciated is they really didn’t shy away from the tough questions.

[00:06:19] Greg Lambert: No, they did not. So, and I would be very interesting to listen to how our audience reacts to this. Let’s jump on in and listen to what they have to say.

[00:06:36] Marlene Gebauer: We are very excited to have Andrea, Andy Kramer, and Alton, Al Harris, as our guests today. Both are practicing partners in big law. Andy and Al speak and write extensively on gender bias in the workplace. And if you don’t believe me, check out their website, andyandal.com. In fact, they have a brand new book hot off the press entitled, It’s Not You, It’s the Workplace, Women’s Conflict at Work and the Bias That Built It. Welcome, welcome to both of you. It’s a real treat to have you at our Garage Podcast.

[00:07:07] Greg Lambert: Yes, it is.

[00:07:08] Andie Kramer: Well, we’re very pleased to be here.

[00:07:09] Al Harris: Thank you for having us.

[00:07:11] Greg Lambert: Hey, Andy, before we begin, I did want to mention that I’m good friends with Jen Berman, a law librarian at your firm, and I understand that she helped you out with the pulling this book together.

[00:07:25] Al Harris: She did. She’s a great friend and has been a big help. So hello, Jen.

[00:07:29] Greg Lambert: All right, yeah. She says to say hello and that she’s very happy that the book is out.

[00:07:33] Al Harris: Yeah, we are too.

[00:07:34] Greg Lambert: You two are like the dynamic duo. You’re big law partners. You have multiple recognitions for your work in women’s initiatives, speakers and co-authors of the award-winning book, Breaking Through Bias, Communication Techniques for Women to Succeed at Work. So tell us a little bit about the journey to that space. What was the catalyst that made you choose this path?

[00:08:01] Al Harris: Well, I served on my firm’s management committee and compensation committee. And what I found immediately on the compensation committee was that women would write about in their self-evaluations about the teams that they were on and wouldn’t claim their accomplishments, basically. And yet the men were very happy to write about, talk about how wonderful they were and how valuable they were to the whole enterprise. You don’t have to be a rocket scientist to know who is going to make more money in that situation. And so the very first thing that I started to do in the gender space publicly was to write about self-evaluation do’s and don’ts about things that women needed to do to own their own accomplishments, basically. And that was the start of the writing, speaking, and sort of researching that we’ve been doing.

[00:08:59] Greg Lambert: Very interesting. I read a report, I think it was last year or the year before, that stated that one of the biggest correlations between women lawyers and compensation is the number of women that are actually on the compensation committee.

[00:09:16] Andie Kramer: There’s no question about it. In fact, we can see a statistical difference if women move from two to three on the compensation committee. It makes the difference. Three seems to be at least the minimum that needs to be there in order for there to be a noticeable change. There is no question but that when we get more women into senior leadership,

[00:09:38] Marlene Gebauer: the women underneath them do much better. How important do you think it is to your brand that your messages are complimentary but not exactly the same? How does that make you unique among the many discussing gender diversity? And Al, specifically for you, it can be very uncomfortable for men to include themselves in this type of conversation. How important is it for men to be involved in this discussion?

[00:10:03] Andie Kramer: Well, in one word, very. Let me just give you one example. I was at a conference last year put on by the American Bar Association, but it was on women in power. And it was a mixed group of men and women being led by a woman. And one of the questions she asked, this great big room full of people, said, how many women have been in a meeting in which they are the only woman? And, oh, you know, most of the women’s hands went up. And then she said, well, how many men have been in a meeting in which they’re the only man? And mine was the only hand that went up.

[00:10:46] Al Harris: Of course her response was, well, of course that’s Al Harris then.

[00:10:49] Andie Kramer: Right, right. So, but why is it important? And if men feel uncomfortable in those situations, they simply need to get over it. We can talk about that in a minute. But why is it important? Because men are in control. They are the dominant power source in virtually all major organizations. They are at the top. And because they are, they create around them a culture of masculine norms, values, and expectations, so that they are very comfortable in the world that they are leading and that they create. a culture of masculine norms, values, and expectations so that they are very comfortable in the world that they are leading and that they create. Well, if women are going to succeed in those workplaces, those men, those men at the top, need to be actively engaged in recognizing that something needs to be done in terms of bringing women up. And the problem at the moment is that most of those men do not realize that. Most of those men, if you ask them, honestly believe deep in their heart that their organizations are pure meritocracies, that women have just as much of a chance to get to the top as a man do. And that if women don’t, it’s because they don’t want to or because they’d rather be home with their children or because they’re less ambitious or because they just don’t have the right stuff. Well, we need to get those men out of that particular bubble and into the real world where they out of that particular bubble and into the real world where they recognize that the world ain’t fair and they need to be part of the reason or the way that it’s going to get fixed.

[00:12:35] Greg Lambert: Well said.

[00:12:37] Marlene Gebauer: Yeah, I was going to say, that’s perfectly said. And I want to follow up because you were talking about, how do men become more comfortable in this type of conversation? Particularly, I think since Me Too, a lot of people have been very afraid to even bring up the topic because they don’t know, they’re afraid that what they say will be taken in the wrong way.

[00:13:01] Al Harris: Well, one of the problems is that for men who are of good intentions, the reality is that it’s an opportunity to have a conversation. And unfortunately, there’s a lot of men who aren’t comfortable interacting with women. in the first place who are able to hide behind the Me Too kind of banner saying, well, I’m afraid that I’m just not going to get it right. So I don’t want to, I’m going to not have a meal with a woman. I’m not going to mentor her. I’m not going to sponsor her. And so unfortunately, that’s the wrong response and that we really do need to have more conversations and less excuses, frankly.

[00:13:43] Andie Kramer: Let’s not attribute completely, improper motives to the men. A lot of men, particularly at the senior level of these organizations, something over 70% of those men, executives in major organizations, have women, have wives who don’t work outside the home. They are used to women being caregivers, being support to them, being able to allow them to go about their business without concern for domestic concerns or childcare. And so women who are in their organizations, who are displaying characteristics that are very unlike their wives are foreign to them. They are simply uncomfortable with them. and we need to find ways to make them comfortable. And one of my messages is the only way you’re going to get comfortable is to do it. That we need to find ways that bring men and women into contact, working together, mentoring each other, finding ways to work together. And there are ways that that can be done, but it requires some effort. And we talk about things that can be done in that regard.

[00:15:12] Greg Lambert: Just to follow up on Marlene’s question, when the two of you are in the room together, you kind of pack a one-two punch. Andy, what is it that you bring to the conversation? And then Al, what is it that you bring? How do you affect the audience differently?

[00:15:30] Al Harris: Well, interestingly, I’m gonna probably do it backwards, which is that what I bring is all of the experiences

[00:15:38] Andie Kramer: and the life experiences that come along with having been a lawyer for as many years as I have.

[00:15:46] Al Harris: But what I find is that I like to work with Al because if I try to say to the men, they don’t get it, they don’t understand what the issue is, then their eyes roll up into the back of their heads. And so what I find is that I like to have Al along because he can do the dirty work and let them know that there’s work that needs to be done and that there’s a role in it for them.

[00:16:13] Andie Kramer: It’s, you hate to confirm the gender biases, but a male voice is often far more authoritative than a female voice. That people pay more attention when a man says exactly the same thing that a woman has said. That shows up in meetings, it shows up in public discourse, it shows up in these kinds of training sessions. And so what Andy and I have found is that by combining our perspectives, by both being there, from speaking from two different points of view, we can

[00:16:49] Greg Lambert: by both being there from speaking from two different points of view,

[00:16:55] Andie Kramer: can get far more engagement from everyone in the room. It’s not just that the men pay more attention, but the women are paying more attention when they see a man and a woman speaking together, agreeing, being supportive of one another, and trying to do something creative together so that they are able to see that when men and women work as a team, the whole is bigger than the sum of the parts.

[00:17:32] Marlene Gebauer: Yeah, so it’s not a you problem or a me problem. It’s our problem, and we should work on it together.

[00:17:39] Andie Kramer: Absolutely right.

[00:17:41] Greg Lambert: One of the topics that you cover is how, since the #MeToo movement, organizations have over-focused on actionable harassment and discrimination. more discriminatory behaviors, when they also need to focus on the more subtle behaviors if they really are committed to eliminating gender bias in the workplace. Can you tell us just a little bit about the spectrum of behaviors and how even the little things undermine the best intentions?

[00:18:11] Al Harris: Absolutely. Actually, we wrote an article for the Harvard Business Review on this subject where the title is something like, if you want to know how your workers feel about harassment, just ask them. And what we found, of course, that’s an anathema for attorneys to suggest that you actually ask people what it is that they, for the problems that they have. But basically what we found is that there’s a spectrum that organizations that have gender bias in them, that tolerate gender bias, have more sexual misconduct. have more sexual misconduct. And organizations that tolerate incivility have more sexual misconduct. have more sexual misconduct. And so the reality is that there’s a whole spectrum of behaviors that if an organization is prepared to let certain things slip through, then the rest of it becomes more likely. Not that it’s a given, but that that’s a key part of what is going on. And so by trying to worry about a workplace culture and trying to do something and learning about it becomes a very valuable tool in overcoming these problems.

[00:19:24] Andie Kramer: We don’t want to minimize in any way the problem of harassment or sexual assault. I mean, those are really horrifying and very serious. But far more common. way, way more common in our organizations are the assertion of male dominance through sexual means, off-color jokes, crude language, stares, comments about women’s appearance, anything that they can use that. off-color jokes, crude language, stares, comments about women’s appearance, anything that they can use. is an assertion of power designed to put the women down, to minimize their importance in the context of the workplace. Those are very debilitating to the women to be not just one time, but to face that kind of behavior and language on a continual basis is spirit breaking. And we need to find ways to make certain that organizations don’t allow that kind of assertion of sexual dominance to exist. Because men use that kind of sexual dominance not in an effort to entice these women into having sexual relations with them. They use it in order to assert power. And they are the crudest way, but they are an effective way of maintaining male power.

[00:21:07] Greg Lambert: Well, let me ask you this. Do firms need to have some kind of, say, quasi-broken window policy where they really crack down on the small behaviors in order to eliminate the big behaviors? say quasi broken window policy where they really crack down on the small behaviors in order to eliminate the big behaviors?

[00:21:23] Andie Kramer: Yes. But when you say firms, very often it’s difficult for the organizations to do it. What we need to do is create a culture within organizations in which if there’s a man who’s behaving inappropriately, there is another man who will call him on it. That there is a recognition on the part of people generally that this is unacceptable so that when it occurs, there is a call out, there is a put down, there is a criticism. There is a way that is shown to be unacceptable. And when you have an organization that has that sort of a culture, you will end it.

[00:22:08] Greg Lambert: Right. And the culture has to be that the men on the ground are comfortable and expected to step up. at that point. And instead, when I said the firm, in air quotes, needs to do it, then that tends to let people off the hook and say, well, it’s not my job.

[00:22:27] Al Harris: and say, well, it’s not my job.

[00:22:29] Greg Lambert: We have a committee that enforces this.

[00:22:32] Al Harris: Right, and it turns out that if somebody does do something inappropriate, an off-color joke or that kind of sort of sexual dominance, as Al said, it’s about power, it’s not about sex, but it’s way too much to expect that the women who are being subjected to this are going to be the ones who call out the behavior. That doesn’t mean they can’t, but very often what they have to do is they have to find a way to get that person aside one-on-one and then bring up the conversation. You can’t do it on the spot because at that point, then the man who was trying to assert power in the first place is trying to save face, and then he’s got it out for her. Gotcha. And that’s really why you need an ally. And that’s whether it’s another man or it’s another woman. But a lot of times men will say to us, I’m uncomfortable in those situations too, but I don’t know what to do about it. And so that’s really Al’s point about that it needs to be a culture where that sort of behavior is not accepted.

[00:23:36] Marlene Gebauer: And that’s where I’m going to jump in and say, the organization does have some responsibility, particularly in that regard in sort of putting, may having a culture where it is safe to do those things, to talk to people that way, to have those conversations. And also to not basically put people in situations where the potential is greater. I mean, I know there’s a lot of discussion about now about events and alcohol and having open door policies and things like that. Do you feel that organizations can do more or do other things that would sort of help that, promote that culture?

[00:24:19] Andie Kramer: Yes, I think there are a couple of things that they can do. Yes, I think there are a couple of things that they can do. One, the problem very often is that the people who assert and dominance, who are doing things wrong, are often very powerful people. They’re often people who are the biggest producers or the largest client getters or the senior managers. Therefore, there is a reluctance to call them out or to discipline them. All we have to do is look at the recent revelations, whether it’s at the Weinstein companies or at Fox News or CBS, that the powerful men just don’t get called on their behavior. And so the organization can do a great deal by making certain that retaliation cannot happen. That if somebody complains, is harassed, is put down that their complaints are listened to and there can be no retribution against them. That’s the first thing that needs to be done. But the organizations can also put in policies. You mentioned open doors. You mentioned open doors. Our concern is not that open doors are a bad thing, but that when we call attention to special kinds of arrangements when women are present, we are likely to create discriminatory situations where men are comfortable with another man in their office with the door shut, but not with a woman in their office with the door shut. Well, if the door is shut because the conversation is private, because it’s tricky, because it involves important vulnerabilities, well, maybe the door ought to be shut. And what we need to keep our eye on is that men’s relationships with other men and men’s relationships with women need to be on the same footing. They need to be handled in the same way.

[00:26:34] Al Harris: And so one of the things, for example, is that organizations need to be making certain that men are responsible for mentoring and supporting women’s careers.

[00:26:40] Marlene Gebauer: that men are responsible for mentoring and supporting women’s careers.

[00:26:45] Al Harris: And that way then it’s not, oh, look what’s going on. Greg is having lunch with Marlene. We better start gossiping about it, but Greg’s got a responsibility to be working with Marlene on a project or mentoring or vice versa. And so that’s really a key part of it as well.

[00:27:09] Marlene Gebauer: Yeah, you actually jumped onto my next question. So great. I know that both of you have a strong commitment to mentoring women to succeed in a gender biased world. And my first thought is like, well, why can’t you let me be me and you be you? And can’t we just get along and work together? Why is mentoring so critical? And you mentioned that male mentors are very important. Why is that very important?

[00:27:43] Al Harris: Well, first of all, There aren’t enough senior women to go around. So that if the men don’t participate, then the senior women are put in a very uncomfortable situation. Where somehow they’re supposed to be giving more and more of their time. And the men don’t have to contribute any of their time to the advancement of half the population. But the other part of it is that because of gender biased workplaces, what happens is there are stereotypes and biases that we have about women, men, leaders, families, and women and men hold women and men to these stereotypes. And so one of the issues with mentoring is that we need to be certain that men and women can feel comfortable in providing support to each other.

[00:28:39] Andie Kramer: Let me jump in there, Marlene. You mentioned, why can’t I just be me and you be you? I think that gets us into what we think about as another stereotype. and that’s the authenticity stereotype. The very notion that we are a particular kind of way. and that’s the only way we are. that we are one sort of person. Well, we aren’t one sort of person. We are lots of sorts of persons. We can be assertive. We can be kind. We can be welcoming. We can be standoffish. They’re just all sorts of ways that we can be. And mentoring is often a way of advising people as to how and when to adopt particular sorts of behavioral patterns. Not to change who they are, not to be a phony, not to act in an inauthentic way. because it’s always important to hold onto your core values. but to adopt a style, a presence, a way of proceeding that is going to be effective in the situation that you’re in. And men very often can see, because they’re often up at the top, they can see what is working, who’s advancing, who isn’t advancing, and why that is. So they bring a valuable piece of insight into those relationships.

[00:30:20] Greg Lambert: Do the people that are the mentors, do they benefit as much as the mentees when there’s a mix where it’s men mentoring women? Do the mentors learn as well?

[00:30:34] Al Harris: Absolutely. It turns out that in much of the mentorship research, that the mentor benefits very often as much, if not more so, from the relationship. It’s not just a one-way helping the mentee. And in fact, the way to have a successful relationship is really for the mentee to find ways to help the mentor, to make them look good. It doesn’t have to be, it can be a short-term relationship, but it can be a way of sort of building your dream team to help each other for many years to come.

[00:31:17] Greg Lambert: Great. I want to talk about the Mansfield Rule in law firms, which law firms see as the next generation of the National Football League’s Rooney Rule. So just to clarify, I want to say that the Mansfield Rule is named for the first woman to be admitted into the practice of law, Arabella Mansfield. And this rule certifies that law firms consider at least 30% women, LGBTQ+, and minority lawyers for significant leadership roles. What’s your position on the Mansfield Rule in firms that have or have not necessarily signed on to it?

[00:31:58] Al Harris: Well, if you look at the success of the Rooney Rule in the NFL, it doesn’t say that you have to hire that person or you have to put them in that senior leadership role, but by just giving them an opportunity to be considered miraculously improves the odds. I feel very strongly that the Mansfield Rule modifying the Rooney Rule is great. It really does allow people to be considered and at the table in a way that they have not been considered previously, because people tend to favor people who look like them.

[00:32:37] Greg Lambert: Yeah, and that’s one of the things I did want to talk to you about with that, is that does these rules, like the Mansfield Rule, I know you’ve talked before about affinity bias, where people are naturally drawn to other people that look and act like them. Does the Mansfield Rule help to eliminate this, or at least, I guess, balance out the affinity bias?

[00:33:03] Andie Kramer: What it tends to do is not eliminate it, because we’re human beings. We’re always going to be more comfortable working with people who are like us. What it’s going to do is it’s going to get in the way of that preference from affecting career-decisive decisions so that when we have the Mansfield Rule in place, then men’s affinity bias is interrupted to a significant extent. They’ve got to consider some number of women to be on that team or to be promoted or to visit the client. So what it does is it puts people in somewhat uncomfortable situations of having to recognize that the world is going to be better when we work with people who are not like us. That there is a win-win possibility out there for all of us if we will just simply broaden our field of vision.

[00:34:23] Marlene Gebauer: An interesting blog post on your website is one where you discuss managing the impressions that you make. Now, I know communication is a big area of focus for both of you. And what particularly struck me is that in order for a woman to appear as a leader, she will need to pivot in a global environment. So she may need to be authoritative in the US, ability to work across differences in Japan, for example. Some of the behaviors that you highlight seem complementary, but others really seem opposite. How can a woman manage this? And do men have to do the same thing?

[00:34:59] Al Harris: Well, basically, Al and I refer to that as the Goldilocks dilemma, which is that women very often, if we’re nice and kind and sweet, then we’re perceived as nice and kind and sweet, but we’re not considered to be leaders or competent. But if we’re too, you do this and you do that, and Marlene and Greg were meeting at five o’clock, and we’re going to talk about the conclusions. both of your hairs are going to catch fire. Who does she think she is telling me what to do? And so women are perceived as too hard or too soft. And so impression management is really what the social scientists refer to as a way of managing the impressions that other people have of you. And so women need to be able to demonstrate that we are nice and kind and sweet at the same time as we’re competent. And so men don’t have that same pressure, although there are certain behaviors that men are expected to engage in. And so there is some balancing, but the Goldilocks dilemma is really a women’s issue where in a gender biased workplace, we’re supposed to be demonstrating that we’re not just competent, but that we’re also nice. We could talk for hours about how unfair that is, but the points that Al has made previously about how we all have different characteristics is really what it’s about. We all, when we wake up in the morning and we go to our closet, we know we’re going to dress differently if we’re going to an important meeting or if we’re going to be going to the beach. We know if we’re going to dress differently if we’re going to a fancy black tie event or if we’re going to a picnic. And so we have these characteristics and we need to manage the impressions that other people have of us by deciding which characteristic we’re taking out of the closet at which moment in time. It turns out that that’s really what impression management is about. It is managing, and that’s really Al and I speaking together, is managing impressions. It’s not something that men find as much of an anathema as women do, but primarily this authenticity issue that Marlene, you brought up before, Al referred to it as a stereotype because there’s thousands of articles about women keep your authenticity, and there’s not one article about men you need to be authentic. And so what’s that about? What that’s about is it’s another way of holding women back.

[00:37:43] Andie Kramer: I think it’s important when we compare men and women. What we’re talking about is achieving positions of leadership. And men don’t need to worry nearly as much about impression management because the stereotypes that are associated with men are the same ones that are associated with leaders. And that’s true regardless of where you are in the world. So that when men behave, if they are behaving in a typically masculine manner, they are doing what is expected. The problem, the impression management dilemma that women have, is that if they behave in stereotypically female ways, if they are demure and modest and caring and kind, then they are not seen as leaders. And so they’ve got a far trickier problem than men do. And that’s true whether those women are in the United States or China or Japan or India or the EU.

[00:38:58] Marlene Gebauer: There are many very successful women who are tagged as intimidating simply because they are successful in what they do. And that’s by men and women. So how do you, and because of that, there’s problems in terms of interacting with others in the workplace. So how do you get around that? Well, you use the word intimidate.

[00:39:23] Andie Kramer: I thought you were searching for the word bitch.

[00:39:26] Marlene Gebauer: Well, my intimidating is your bitch, maybe.

[00:39:31] Al Harris: Absolutely. Well, let me respond to your point because when I joined my law firm, I joined as a full partner with a corner office and my own clients and the reaction to me was, well, obviously she has to be nasty. And so I get a new assistant and she comes, she’s in training and she comes into my office and her eyes are the size of saucers. And I said, what’s wrong? And she said, well, I met the secretarial coordinator. And she asked me who I’m working for. And I said, oh, I’m working for Andie Kramer. And she said, oh, you’re working for the dragon lady. What? I have to go. I have to go to the dictionary and look for the dragon lady. I didn’t know what that was. It’s not nice. No, no, it’s not. So the assumption was, well, if I have my own clients and I have a corner office, then I’m not a nice person. That plays itself out. And so a woman who is successful is very often assumed to be too assertive, too aggressive to this, to that. When in reality, she’s just like the guys trying to get the job done. But because it’s a woman, the expectation is that she’s out of stereotype and therefore there’s something wrong with her.

[00:40:47] Andie Kramer: But while that is often the case, I don’t want to leave this point without recognizing that there are some nasty women bosses.

[00:40:53] Greg Lambert: that there are some nasty women bosses.

[00:40:57] Al Harris: Just like nasty men.

[00:40:58] Andie Kramer: But there are nasty men bosses as well. And because there are so many fewer women bosses, when we find the nasty ones, it’s far easier to ascribe that characteristic to women bosses generally, whereas we don’t do it with men. The other thing to keep in mind is that when women are in leadership, they’re under enormous pressure to conform to the masculine norms that are dominant in their organization. They are expected to behave just like the senior men. And they are judged and evaluated and promoted themselves based not on how nice and kind and sweet they are to the people below them, but how tough and driven and competitive they are. And so women very often will behave in ways that appear to other people not to be particularly nice, simply because they are under such pressure to conform to the expectations that are foisted on them in masculine environments.

[00:42:19] Greg Lambert: This kind of reminds me, this whole talk that we’re doing reminds me of something that we brought up a couple of episodes ago, and it was more based on race. But I think we can parallel this to gender, in that law firm spaces are male-dominated spaces, and that women are being judged in male-dominated spaces. And if everyone can recognize that and adjust behavior, or at least identify that, I think that that would go a long way in helping people understand why you’re having, why people have different views given the same situation.

[00:43:09] Al Harris: Clearly, and they’re masculine workplaces, but they’re also predominantly white masculist.

[00:43:15] Greg Lambert: Yes, yeah, that’s the saying that we used a couple episodes ago was about a journalist who was, who was a black woman being judged in the white male space and having to come to grips with things that a white male may not even think twice about. It was very profound and affected someone who was not white male. No question about it. Another one of your blog posts highlighted that millennial men are more likely to be uncomfortable than older men with women holding positions of power and public prominence. It seems kind of backwards. You know, everyone seems to think that the younger generation gets it, that they’re the ones that are going to fix all these issues. But you specifically point out that there’s even more of a discomfort with younger millennial men with women in power.

[00:44:20] Al Harris: I’m going to say one thing and then I’m going to turn it over to Al, which is that my beloved grandmother would have said, from your mouth to God’s ears.

[00:44:26] Andie Kramer: No question about that. Many studies are out there that show that the millennial generation, the younger people, are more diverse. They’re more open to diversity. They’re more tolerant. Certainly, they are more accepting of LGBT people and to a degree that that’s true. What we’re talking about though is the acceptance by these men of women into significant positions of leadership and power. What the studies show, we didn’t make this up, what the studies show is that younger men are less comfortable with women being senators, being chief executive officers, being president, being engineers, being their direct supervisor. So depressing. Than our older men. And so the question is, why is that? Why is this open, diverse, very enlightened generation, why do they feel this way? And the theory is that women are knocking the socks off of the men in colleges and universities and graduate schools. The women are in the majority. They are outperforming the men. They are getting better grades and they are doing more outstanding work. And when these men get out, they’ve had enough. They say, all right, those women have been on top long enough. Now I’m in an environment in which I’m the in-group and I’ll be damned if I’m going to bring those women up to where I am. I don’t want anything to do with them.

[00:46:28] Marlene Gebauer: That’s really interesting. And I wonder if sort of the impact of Title IX has sort of anything to do with it in terms of women and their attitudes towards success. I’ve read articles where that that’s had a marked impact on sort of women and their confidence and doing things. So if you have women sitting there knocking the socks off of confident, well-educated, talented women, knocking the socks off of everybody, as you’re sort of highlighting, maybe that’s enough of a threat for men to behave that way.

[00:47:02] Al Harris: Well, it turns out, yes, and it turns out that the studies also show that women and men start their careers with the same ambitions, the same confidence, the same expectations, the same views of their careers. But three, four, five years out, women have cut their expectations back. And it’s not because of any changes to themselves, but it’s to their reactions to the workplace environment. And that’s really why we feel that it’s so important, and in the context of both of our books, to try to move the needle, to try to change the way people think about this. Because organizations that are diverse tend to have better ideas. And so, we need to turn this into a win-win situation instead of a, it’s my turn to be in the in-group, so I’m not going to go out of my way to help you.

[00:48:00] Marlene Gebauer: Yeah, it’s like, it’s not you, it’s the workplace. Right?

[00:48:15] Greg Lambert: What a great title for a book.

[00:48:16] Marlene Gebauer: Yeah, imagine. And speaking of which, I’d like you both to tell us a little bit about your two books. How did it feel as authors writing each of those? Was it similar? And what are the key messages that you’re trying to impart to the audience in each of them?

[00:48:35] Al Harris: The first book, Breaking Through Bias, was an outgrowth of a lot of the work that I had done in the context of learning how women and men truly do communicate differently in the workplace, not because of inherent natural differences, but the way we’re socialized and the way gender-biased workplaces feed into the sorts of stereotypes and biases that flow from them. And so, when I decided that I wanted to write a book, I went to Al and I asked him because I knew if he would join me and we’d do it together, because I knew that we’ve collaborated on all sorts of legal projects over the years and thought that the two of us would be stronger than just me by myself. And that turned out to be the case. The second book really was an outgrowth of the first book. So, It’s Not You, It’s the Workplace, Women’s Conflict at Work and the Bias that Built It. It turns out that when we started talking about Breaking Through Bias, women would come up to us and say, you’re right about this gender bias, but I kind of got this figured out and the tips you have in your book are really very helpful. I work fine with the guys, I just hate working with the women. The women are nasty and evil and the men are just great. And in pressing them, how are the women treating you differently from the men? It turns out that the women don’t treat them any differently. It’s just that the women are the boss and they don’t expect the women to be the boss. They want the woman to be their mother or their big sister or their friend or to cut them some slack. And that’s only one piece of the issues that we worked on. And research, but that was what prompted the start of It’s Not You, It’s the Workplace.

[00:50:31] Andie Kramer: So the first book is directed at what women, men, organizations can do to advance women’s careers. The second book is really about what women, men, and organizations can do to improve the relationships between women in the workplace. Because what we found is when women can support each other, when they can become advocates for one another, when they are comfortable speaking out on behalf of other women, then all the women in that organization do better. They are more at home, they are more satisfied with their jobs, and they find life at the office more enjoyable, more satisfying, more fulfilling. So the books are complementary. They’re both about bias, they’re both about stereotypes, but they’re about how they impact different relationships in different ways.

[00:51:41] Greg Lambert: Well, I know we could talk for three more hours on this. I really appreciate you taking the time to talk to us. Can you point the listeners to your website and where that they can buy the two books that you have?

[00:51:56] Al Harris: Well, our website is andiel.com, and to confuse everybody, I spell Andy, A-N-D-I-E. So it’s A-N-D-I-E-A-N-D-A-L.com, and we have blogs and assessments and surveys and things on our website. The books are available on Amazon and from local retailers. They’re easy enough to get it from. In fact, I saw Walmart and Target and Amazon and Barnes and Noble, and everybody’s got it. So we’re very excited about the launch of our new book and the continued interest people have in breaking through bias. So we’d love to have your listeners go out there and buy our books and then let us know what you think about it.

[00:52:46] Greg Lambert: Sounds good. Yes, absolutely. Well, Andy Kramer and Al Harris, again, thank you very much for talking with us today.

[00:52:54] Marlene Gebauer: Yes, thank you so, so much for joining us today.

[00:52:56] Andie Kramer: Well, we’ve enjoyed it.

[00:52:57] Al Harris: Thank you for having us.

[00:53:00] Greg Lambert: Marlene, again, just as I said going into this, I went through a wide range of emotions on this one. So what a pleasure having Andy and Al on the show.

[00:53:14] Marlene Gebauer: Yeah, and I really appreciated the dual perspective that we got from both of them. I think that that was something that’s unique. And I think they really highlighted how important it is to have this conversation between both men and women in order to address the problem.

[00:53:32] Greg Lambert: Yeah, I can understand why it is that sometimes men feel uncomfortable talking about this, but I think Andy said it best with, hey, get over it. Get involved in the situation.

[00:53:47] Marlene Gebauer: It’s important enough to be a little uncomfortable.

[00:53:49] Greg Lambert: Absolutely. And I think that there are some very toxic people out there in the workplace, and we need to feel comfortable in making sure that we’re not just making ΓÇô

[00:54:03] Marlene Gebauer: We need to make them feel uncomfortable.

[00:54:05] Greg Lambert: Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, and I think it’s also the fact that one part when they were talking about it can’t be the responsibility of the person who’s being bullied in the workplace to be the one that has to stand up for it.

[00:54:12] Marlene Gebauer: be the responsibility of the person who’s being bullied in the workplace to be the one that has to stand up for it.

[00:54:21] Greg Lambert: Everyone else should be able to feel comfortable in standing up against this type of behavior.

[00:54:27] Marlene Gebauer: Agreed. Agreed.

[00:54:29] Greg Lambert: We’d like to thank Andy Kramer and Al Harris again for joining us today. So go out there and check out their website, andyandal.com, for more information and links to purchase their new book, It’s Not You, It’s the Workplace.

[00:54:44] Marlene Gebauer: Great title.

[00:54:45] Greg Lambert: Yeah. Also, there are these wonderful worksheets, Marlene, that are on the website, and it gives you question guides to help you with a group discussion on the issues covered in the book. So if you want to get a book club together, they’ve got things already set up for you.

[00:55:02] Marlene Gebauer: Yeah. Perfect. Also, if you have a good story to tell about what it is that your family thinks you do, be sure to let us know by leaving a voicemail at 713-487-7270, or email us at geekinreviewpodcast@gmail.com. We’d love to share your story in an upcoming episode. Please take the time to subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen. Rate and review us as well.

[00:55:29] Greg Lambert: Yeah, it makes me very happy when I see some new reviews out there.

[00:55:32] Marlene Gebauer: And we really want Greg to be happy.

[00:55:34] Greg Lambert: Yeah, I know I do.

[00:55:37] Marlene Gebauer: If you have comments or suggestions, you can reach us on Twitter at Gabehourm or at Glambert, or you can call the Geek & Review hotline at 713-487-7270, or email us at geekinreviewpodcastatgmail.com. I think I just said that. Don’t forget to share your family stories. And as always, the music you hear is from Jerry David DeSicca. Thanks, Jerry.

[00:56:00] Greg Lambert: Thanks, Jerry. All right, and thanks, Marlene. I will talk to you later.

[00:56:04] Marlene Gebauer: Talk to you later.

[00:56:05] Speaker F: Bye. Don’t have to go to the cross The songs of the earth on the way to rehearse At the devil’s backbone bar Hey, hey, don’t take me away I can walk home by the North Star But I failed to notice that it’s still daylight’s At the devil’s backbone bar At the devil’s backbone bar At the devil’s backbone bar