Marlene (@gebauerm) and Greg (@glambert) talk with Legal Rebel, Jae Um (@jaesunum), Founder & Executive Director at Six Parsecs, about her unique writing style (it involves the use of emojis), and her ideas behind her series on Legal Innovation Woes.
Greg breaks

down a conversation which amplified the idea of why it’s important to be seen as a driver for the firm’s bottom line, and how he deleted Facebook and twitters apps from his phone, as well as how didn’t melt while in Arizona over the weekend.

Marlene talks about CIVIL, a new cryptocurrency model helping to rebuild trust and integrity in journalism. Marlene also needs some suggestions on multi-player mobile games. Ones in which she can win.

Remember to take time to subscribe via  iTunes, or Google Play , or whatever your platform of choice.


Greg Lambert 0:00
rebel rebel. Do do do dress.

marlene gebauer 0:03
Your face is a mess.

Greg Lambert 0:06
That’s why we don’t sing these

marlene gebauer 0:17
Welcome to The Geek in Review the podcast designed to cover the legal information profession with a slant towards technology and management. I’m Marlene Gebauer,

Greg Lambert 0:26
And I’m Greg Lambert. So Marlene I skipped off to the Arizona desert this weekend.

marlene gebauer 0:33
Did you skip merrily?

Greg Lambert 0:35
I skipped merrily so merrily so went there and just escaped for the weekend and enjoyed the 160 degree heat that of course September brings to Arizona deserts all I could care the entire time I was there was Bill Paxton, his character Hudson from Alien gel and yeah, man, but it’s a dry heat. Yeah, I

marlene gebauer 0:55
mean, you barely notice it until the car tires melt, right? Yeah, someone told me the other day that any place that has to have shade coverings at crosswalks is definitely too hot for me kind

Greg Lambert 1:05
of like Texas here where the value of your parking space isn’t by the distance to the door, but rather the amount of shade during the day. Exactly. Hey, before I flew off for my mini vacation, I had dinner with some of my colleagues at work last week. And have you ever had someone verbalize something that was just so blatantly obvious, but they do so in a way that makes you just kind of sit up and go? Yeah, exactly. Well, that happened to me at this event. So we were there to celebrate a good friend of mine who was retiring, and the stories were being told around the table. And you know, of course, there was some wine involved. And when the two of us were relaying how we first met, when I joined the firm, she retold the story of how I immediately like sought her out and let her know that we were going to be friends. And that my vision was that the the librarian, she was the research or she was the marketing person. I told her the library and research teams and the marketing teams, were going to have such a tremendous relationship. And that together, we’re gonna make each team better. And one of the partners just kind of looked over at meaning. And this is a guy that I respect a lot he chimed in with the statements and goes, so you moved your group from overhead to revenue. That’s pretty smart. So I was like, yeah, that exactly that a spot on. So it made me you know, think about if you can move that needle on how your department is viewed by the firm as helping drive revenue, no matter how insignificant, you may think that is, it is a big deal for the powers that be at your firm. In fact, I would say it’s not even limited to firms. So corporations, academics, even government and court agencies focus on the bottom line. So my advice is to find something that resonates with those powers at your organization and be seen as driving success to that bottom line.

marlene gebauer 2:57
Yeah, that’s good advice, which I know we’ve both heard many times stay close to the revenue stream, you know, but what I think can sometimes be challenging for people who may not have a direct communication line with leadership is knowing what resonates with them and how to present it leadership may not be aligned or because no one seems to have a 1513 or at this point, even one year plan. What resonates can change very quickly. And hey, that sounds like a topic for a podcast. So if anybody wants to speak about that, send us a note. Absolutely. We’re always looking for topics. I wanted to apologize to our listeners. I confused some folks regarding the movie American animals. I said that it was on Netflix. It was not in fact, on Netflix, it was on Amazon Prime.

Greg Lambert 3:40
I have to admit Marlene, I was one of those people that was confused. I ran home. I turned on Netflix and I did a search for American animals and get nothing

marlene gebauer 3:47
I am so so sorry. I am so sorry, everybody. It’s also on YouTube and on Google Play. So so many apologies. I was applying that tourniquet from the 10,000 paper cuts suffered from the first week of school and I was a little distracted. But you were Greg and I are big fans of the podcast make me smart and I was listening to an episode and learned about a crypto startup called civil CI V i l which wants to leverage Cryptocurrencies and blockchain to reinstate trust and credibility in journalism. So the idea is that the revenue model along with how the public informs itself is really killing the integrity of journalism. The position is that most journalism is now sponsored or user generated, like what you find on YouTube or via social media. Yeah, civil wants to set up an independent newsroom independent newsrooms that foster direct relationships with the readers who can then have a real stake in the form of Cryptocurrency and supporting publications they trust business decisions are up to the newsroom and readers and journalists can dispute what they think is false or unethical and they can vote with their Cryptocurrency tokens on the content they support. That’s it. Interesting. Yeah, so I’m all for ethical journalism. But I can also see how this model could also influence journalists. I mean, you can even tip the writers you like with tokens. So it’s sort of like the staging app if you’ve ever used it where you can listen to a band online, and you can tip them, you know if you’d like them.

Greg Lambert 5:19
Yeah, I’ve used that before and tipped bands while they’re playing. Anyway, if

marlene gebauer 5:23
you want to learn more about civil, we have some links on the blog, and the token sale starts on September 18. All

Greg Lambert 5:29
right, save up your money.

marlene gebauer 5:31
I got no money. None of us do. Oh, I wanted to mention and civil recently partnered with the Associated Press to assist that wire service using Blockchain to track where the content is going and whether it’s licensed correctly to prevent the baddies from stealing content. Interesting.

Greg Lambert 5:45
Well, I’d like to see how that how that goes. I’m not sure I’m ready to buy in yet. But maybe on their second go round of there will be lurkers? Yeah, exactly. All right. Well, speaking of lurking, I’m trying something that I’ve been hearing others are doing recently, and I went ahead and deleted Facebook and Twitter apps from my phone. I know, don’t don’t read too much. It’s it’s not that significant. So I’ve read a number of instances where people have done this. And it’s not where they stopped using it. But it just makes it a little bit more cumbersome to get onto the platforms by not having the app. In other words, you have to use the web to get to it. So use your web browser on your phone to get to it. And I have to say is definitely cutting down on my automatic impulses to check social media. So that that’s helped kind of cut down my social media impulses. But I will admit that I’ve taken a look at Reddit recently to see what all the fuss is about. To say, While I love the content, there’s some good content, man, those commenters are brutal. They’re like, they’re like the mean kids in middle school who like to point out any flaw they spot. So whatever you do, for God’s sakes, don’t ask for advice on Reddit or misspell anything. They will rip you to shreds. Yeah,

marlene gebauer 7:02
and I know you like political and social discourse. So maybe check out that Chiara site that I mentioned on episode 10. That’s right. Yeah, that’s right. It’s the kinder, gentler discourse and not the barroom Brawl of Reddit. Oh,

Greg Lambert 7:15
no, no, I think I could probably start a ballroom bar room brawl.

marlene gebauer 7:18
I think you could. I remove red at some time ago, and also Facebook’s messenger, but I still have Twitter and Facebook on my phone. I’m not a big abuser says everyone else too. But I do like having it on the phone just because if I do want to look, that’s usually a device I have handy. Oh, and I’m playing Words with Friends too. Which is odd because I don’t like Scrabble. And because of that what isn’t odd is that I’m getting slaughtered regularly. Now I’m talking to you, Heather, I’m talking to you. You know who you are, know, Trey, we play battleship the other day. But the the problem with that one is you have to play simultaneously. So you both have to be available to play, which sometimes isn’t in the cards right. But it’s really fun to say you saved my battleship.

Greg Lambert 8:02
And I said it a lot during around the games last week. Anyone

marlene gebauer 8:05
out there if you have any other good app games that are free or cheap and you think that I could win that you can play me friends?

Greg Lambert 8:12
Wait, what did you think you could win?

marlene gebauer 8:14
I think I could win. Okay, but you can I don’t I don’t want the ones where I’m going to lose them or I already have those that you can play with friends and take turns over time. Let us know. All right. So Greg, we are so happy to have Jay on our podcast, Jay worked at Seaforth Shaw rotating through a variety of roles and pricing branding, client service and business development. Before becoming director of strategic planning and analysis. Jay subsequently found six parsecs a market research firm in 2017. She speaks at various industry conferences and is a contributor to the legal evolution blog and the American lawyer. And you’d pointed out to me that she has also recently won the award for legal rebel. So I want to I want to apologize up front to all the listeners, even though we say this is a GarageBand podcast,

Greg Lambert 9:04
this kind of we kind of took it to the next level on this one,

marlene gebauer 9:06
I suppose beyond the pale as far as GarageBand podcasts go, and we did this at Jay’s request, I was getting carpet installed. And you know, the level of noise was fairly significant. So you know, you’ll probably hear some hammering and things in the background. But you know, it’s all about the local flavor. Yes, it is. Alright, so here’s the interview. And enjoy. Alright,

Greg Lambert 9:27
let’s jump in

marlene gebauer 9:36
We’re so happy Greg to have Jae Um, on our podcast today.

Jae Um 9:41
Thank you, and thanks for having me.

marlene gebauer 9:44
And I want to point out that that I am having carpeting installed right now. And Jay said it would be good to have me on the call even though you’re going to hear work being done because it’s sort of its reality, and it’s real life so I’m letting everybody know that that’s what’s going on when you hear the bank.

Greg Lambert 10:03
Well, it’s always nice to know there’s some some real work going on at your house there.

marlene gebauer 10:07
There’s always work going on at my house. Yeah, and

Jae Um 10:11
it’s authentic. Right? Life is messy. You’re always fixing things we should we should be honest about that.

marlene gebauer 10:17
So, Jay, you have a unique style of writing. Now you use emojis to punctuate your points. I thought this was really interesting. So what was your inspiration for doing this? And how does it impact your readers?

Jae Um 10:28
Okay, I love I love this question. Because I think it is one of the things that, you know, makes my writing a little bit more readable, despite the very long length and density of the ideas. So, yeah, it was not so much inspiration, as it was a product of frustration, which I love. Because, you know, I believe that constraints actually make you more creative, make you come up with new and different solutions. So I moved to the US when I was eight years old from Korea, I did not speak a word of English. And then so the first day of school is kind of a traumatic experience. And then by the end of my first full school year, I was I was the best reader, best writer. In my class. I’ve always been very proud of my writing, all of that changed when I started working with lawyers, all of a sudden, the magic of gun because I think it’s because lawyers themselves have a high level of appreciation for words, but they write all day, they read all day. And then so all of a sudden, you know, I started getting not so great results. Writing down my ideas. What I stumbled on to emoji, it’s because I was getting shopping emails, I spend most of my time working so I can make money. And then what little free time I have I spent shopping. So I get a ton of emails. Yeah, that completely

marlene gebauer 11:49
I understand that completely. I noticed that

Jae Um 11:52
they were using emoji and subject lines. And it definitely made those emails stand out, right. When you log into Gmail, Yahoo, 60, new emails, the ones that have some emoji or some graphics in there, it definitely catches your eye. And then so I do have the receipts from 2015. I did a session I think LMA Midwest with my dear friend and colleague, Molly Porter. And there, we did predict that emoji was going to come to legal. By 2018, it had not really happened. And so I wanted to make it happen. It’s

marlene gebauer 12:31
definitely an attention grabber. You know, it made me smile. And

Greg Lambert 12:34
I can say that you were correct by 2018, that it would invade illegal, because there was a court decision earlier this year that use the poop emoji in it.

marlene gebauer 12:47
Right? I forgot about that.

Jae Um 12:49
It tells me something important about emoji that that I always kind of thought from the beginning. It really is the language of emotions, right? It’s just a visceral visualization of how people feel. And I think you know, it’s just another example of lawyers having to stay current.

Greg Lambert 13:07
Let me let me switch gears here a little bit and say, so you have written a very in depth series on the legal innovation woes? Can you walk us through what motivated you to create the series? And what questions or issues Did you set out to explain? And I assume to solve in these, in this writing,

Jae Um 13:30
I think solve is a strong word. I think, you know, these challenges that we see in the marketplace, there are definitely shared challenges, they demand a shared response. So I think one primary goal that I had was to try to get more people on the same page, and at least looking at the whole picture that entire ecosystem, and to show them the variation that’s happening in different pockets of the industry to float up what I think are some issues that cut across segments, you know, it’s important to see the interplay and what clients are struggling with what law firms are struggling with, I have a lot of friends in legal tech and legal startups, we’re very excited about, you know, the new normal kind of the future is here, you know, kind of changing how everything works. And I think in that excitement is very easy to forget that the bulk of legal services are still controlled by big law firms. So they have to have a role in the dialogue and certainly in the work that’s required to move the industry forward. And so I do want to pull forward thinking people from all parts of the industry into a dialogue where we’re not talking past each other.

Greg Lambert 14:49
If I can follow up on that. One of the things we tend to say in law firms or the legal industry is that we tend to be about five years behind, and there’s this There’s this idea that there’s a slowness of innovation in the legal market, you say that blaming that on the tendencies of lawyers is not necessarily helpful. And that that these issues of adopting change aren’t necessarily unique to the legal market, what we need to focus in on are real issues rather than those perceived issues. So what are the real issues of the innovation lag and change fatigue that you see in the market, I think

Jae Um 15:26
the structure of the industry is definitely one real cause of the lag. So one, one thing I do want to address is, you know, this feeling that we’re five years behind, it may or may not be true, maybe three years, maybe 10 years in some very some areas. But you know, it’s not always best to be first, it’s best to be best, right? There’s costs associated with being the first mover in a market or to be the first to try something new. But then the thing about blaming lawyers specific tendencies or kind of thinking that our challenges are unique, I think it obscures, or it makes it more likely that we’re not going to learn from the mistakes or misfortunes of the industries that went first. And then so, you know, it’s not that I think lawyer personalities are not a factor. I absolutely think they are. And I think there are unique features to the legal industry, legal practice in the legal market, that we need to take into consideration. But I think one point I do want to make is I want to focus on things that can be changed, right? So it’s kind of the innovation version of the Serenity Prayer, like, oh, grant me the, you know, recognizing things, I can’t change the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference. And we really believe that, you know, lawyers do have specific characteristics, like, you know, they, they are autonomous, they’re risk averse. And I think the research bears out some of those things. You know, that’s how they are. And I think blaming that actually is designed to make them feel bad about, you know, what tend to be very stable personality traits. So I think that takes us too far away from what is in it for them, you know, maybe it is not in their best interest, and then it stops us from looking at, you know, what are the incentive structures that are in place? What are the disincentives that are in place, you know, so I think that it’s important to see them as people and they’re not, they’re not all powerful. So that gets me back to the structure of the legal market, where it is an incredibly fragmented marketplace,

marlene gebauer 17:39
I wanted to jump back to what you were saying about like, the the the butt lawyer argument and how basically, it’s making, it’s making everybody feel bad, it’s making the attorneys feel bad, because we just, we just had a discussion, I just, I just got some feedback from from, from somebody about what we need to look at in terms of, you know, promoting innovation is, you know, how do you make them feel good about themselves in terms of using this? It’s like, why does this make it better for you? Or why does it make you stand out? And instead of this, like, well, you know, they’re never going to adopt? It’s like, why don’t we kind of turn that on its head and look at it the other way? So I’m definitely going to be thinking along those lines, when I’m, you know, putting together innovation plans, can we, you know, structure this so, so that people are feeling good about doing it? Yeah, absolutely.

Jae Um 18:27
And I think that’s an important thing that we do need to talk about. I don’t think we talk about feelings enough in the legal industry, but I think very famous authors, the brothers, the Heath brothers, right? They wrote a bunch of books on change management. And they say that we think people see something and then they make some kind of rational decision, and then they change, right? But that’s actually not at all how people function. It’s more that they see something, they feel something and then they decide to change. I have

Greg Lambert 18:59
to say, Jay, that I hate feelings. I have strong feelings against feelings in this so so I am glad you’re here because it’s not in my nature to really react to the feelings. So it’s, it’s good to have your perspective on that. No, I

Jae Um 19:17
actually share your aversion I think I tend to deny and repress my own feelings. But then when I think about other people’s feelings, it makes more sense to me because and actually I think that’s maybe helps. Maybe helped me write about feelings because I tend to reason out why why they might be feeling that way. So I was shocked when I first encountered Richard Susskind in the book The End of lawyers question mark with a you know, ominous like read huge text right on this like dark background. And then you know, I saw all these articles like, you know, like lawyer jokes about all of them dying Like literally the existential end of big law, and I’m like, This is so rude. Like, it’s like designed to make everybody feel so bad. Like, why would you add so much tension into the dialogue? And then, you know, I read Richard Susskind and I think he has so many brilliant ideas, of course, very much ahead of his time. And so early in predicting many of the big shifts in the industry, but at the same time, you know, I think one of the things that I went back to Steve, in terms of internal communication or, you know, supporting enabling the partners to succeed is that, you know, I think we need some optimism here. We need messages around hope. And we they need to be told that they can, before they are going to be willing to try

Greg Lambert 20:49
Yeah, that I can tell you the reason for the morbidity is that we’re now on I think, Saturday, Saturday will be the 10th anniversary of the Lehman Brothers collapse. And I heard a really good good quote, and that is it takes a crisis in order to get people off center in move. And I think the same thing happened in legal. Yeah,

Jae Um 21:15
actually. I mean, I agree, I think the burning platform is definitely a key motivator. But one of the things I’ve thought about the legal market, and you know, a lot of the work I did was marketing oriented in terms of positioning the firm, right understanding kind of the lay of the land for the industry. So from a marketing and advertising standpoint, actually, and, you know, creating crafting effective messages. So fear based sales pitches are very effective, but only when the fix is very concrete. And the decision timeframe is time boxed. If you place people in a in an environment of consistent constant, unending fear, like they’re just going to one get used to the state, being afraid. And there’s studies about this and Warzones, that people get desensitized, and then but there’s a higher level of anxiety, which I think is not a hospitable environment for trying new things. And then so I think over time, that has contributed to, you know, this environment of skepticism, kind of disillusionment about the hype, innovation hype, whether it’s AI, or whether it’s FAS, or whatever the new hotness is, there’s always that contingent of like, oh, it’s nonsense, Bs, just like everything else. And, you know, I think there’s a lot of frustration and negative negative emotion in the industry that I think, you know, we need to be mindful of, and maybe keep in check a little bit. All right, little mindfulness

Greg Lambert 22:49
in the legal industry, as well. So you’re talking about getting over the hump of innovation in the hype, one of the things I like what you wrote, which talked about getting to the adoption of getting over the hype and getting onto the adoption is that you say that the new stuff doesn’t stick unless it applies to problems that matter, that they actually works reliably, it works way better. And you capitalize that way better than the old stuff, and add a workable price and effort. You know, which to me sounds very reasonable. But why is it so hard to get there?

Jae Um 23:29
Yeah, a lot of things sound real good. And then, you know, it seems to make sense was super hard to do. But I’m gonna go back to what I said about the industry being extremely fragmented. That means the market is not homogenous. And that’s true for the buyer side and the provider side, right. So you take any client, like, you know, you could have clients like a shell like GlaxoSmithKline, you could have Procter and Gamble, these gigantic conglomerates. And then you have, you know, some kind of tooling company that does like two to 4 billion somewhere in the Midwest, and then you look at their legal departments and the needs of the actual buyer of legal services going to be completely different, even though they’re corporate clients. And then you look at the provider side, and you see the same kind of variety in size and shape of the competitors, right, whether it’s something like the two firms that are doing over 3 billion annually in revenue, you go all the way down to the smallest firm, the AmLaw 200. And you know, they have 91 lawyers. So I think that level of, you know, variety in the marketplace, fragmentation in the market Marketplace makes it very confusing to understand, well, what are the problems that matter?

Greg Lambert 24:44
And so the problems that matter really matter upon the problems of the individual firm or even even the individual attorney, so I see what you’re saying there. So, Jay, when we hear that firms are innovative, Um, sometimes that turns out to be a little bit of fluff. If you’re a client, and you see firms that are out there touting their innovation, how do you know what’s real? versus what is public relations fluff? Well,

Jae Um 25:15
I think that is a very good question. And I do want to touch on something that, you know, might be controversial, but really the How can clients tell the difference? Well, they need to do some hard thinking about what matters to them, right? What are the problems that matter to them, because only the innovations that are applicable and relevant to that problem are going to be valuable. So the ACC has explicitly declined to define value in the value challenge, right? That’s been going on for about 10 years, because value supposed to be client defined? And I agree that value is situational. It’s contextual. And so it’s fluid. Right. But I think that a lot of people in the industry have conflated that with this idea that value is unknowable, right? Does

Greg Lambert 26:06
does an organization like clock define value?

Jae Um 26:10
Um, I think it’s, it’s a attempt at futility to define value across the industry, right. And I don’t think the industry is organized in such a way where clients that are similar are grouped together in some channel where you can find them. firms that are similar are not grouped together in a channel where you can find them or they can really talk about shared challenges that apply to all of them. And then so I think knowledge sharing across the industry is absolutely a positive, absolutely necessary. But I think we need to maybe think a little bit differently about sorting and matching, they need to lead the conversation by saying these are the problems that matter most to us. And then against that backdrop, they will be better able to measure, you know whether something a farmer is putting forth is innovative, is it working reliably? Is it working?

marlene gebauer 27:03
You know, what’s innovative? Magics innovative. I, you know, you had tweeted about this? And I’ll tell you what, you tweeted about it years ago. So I’m sort of giving you some time. Why are metrics not magic? And if they are not magic? What can they do for us?

Jae Um 27:21
Okay, when when I say that, I mean, like saying that word metrics is not going to change anything. And then just measuring anything is not going to change anything, you have to measure the right things, right. And then to pick the right things. There’s a lot of upstream work and thinking about, well, what do we need to work on? It kind of goes back to the problem definition to the opportunity scanning, and then having some logic of what actions would actually help because those are the things that you have to measures I have

marlene gebauer 27:55
one more for you to sort of wrap things up. So you just predicted in a tweet today that privacy law director job listing at Apple is something we’re going to be seeing more of in the high tech sector based on tech lash. And can you explain your rationale for our listeners? Can you tell us what tech lashes and why you think this I think

Jae Um 28:15
this is a great question to kind of tie back you know, our conversation about things not being unique to legal industry or not not being because of because lawyers tech lash, I like this term, although I know some some lawyers will be irritated at my tendency to talk in you know, hashtags and tweetable and mash up new words. But there’s not my own invention I read about it. Yeah, this describes this kind of you know, user user side distrust of social and search these Silicon Valley companies that have held themselves up to be and have been seen as you know, do no evil, they’re gonna bring the future like to now they’re going to democratize access to information, empower creators, lots of big, you know, admirable sentiments, right? They had an easier time climbing that adoption curve, you know, Google blew up Facebook 100 million to half 1,000,000,002 billion 2 billion users and I think in that rush to adoption, people did not really consider that these are new business models, right? When you are accessing those kinds of services, that variety of services for free, you know, you are actually the product right? You’re not the customer because you’re not paying and obviously these companies are making money. And I think now just now that’s entering the public consciousness and making you know, people look at these companies differently, maybe distrust what they’re doing with all the data they have access to about your behavior online, like what you do on on social media platforms, what you’re searching for, how they’re using that data to you know, market You are to sell that information to, you know, election campaign committees, et cetera, et cetera. And I think you know, those concerns are very real. And it demands a response from some of the leading companies in the high tech sector. But I love that you pick this out, actually, because one of the things I want to talk and write more about in coming month is the need really, for real for real, real this time for law firms to really consider a serious effort or an industry orientation. So

Greg Lambert 30:33
hopefully this time we can we can make it real to everybody. So yes, yes. All right. Well, Jay, we’re gonna wrap it up. Thank you very much for joining us. This is Ben Jae, um, the founder of six parsecs, a market research firm. And thanks again, Jae, for joining us.

Jae Um 30:52
Thank you again, I had a wonderful time.

Greg Lambert 30:54
So did Marlene sent you told her she asked the best questions.

marlene gebauer 30:58
I’m not feeling great right now. I’m on top. Oh, thank

Jae Um 31:02
you. Really, I appreciate your thinking of me truly.

marlene gebauer 31:15
So what a fun interview that was right. Oh,

Greg Lambert 31:18
man, yeah. Jae has a lot of thoughts on these issues. And very, very, very interesting. Concepts, her her ideas on the emotions, bringing the feelings and I told you, I’m not I’m not a touchy feely kind of guy when it comes to, to the legal industry and the things that we do, I like to deal with facts better. But I really did take to heart her concerns, and her views on that. And it made sense. You

marlene gebauer 31:47
gotta have all the fields for for, you know, innovation and adoption, get all the fields there. Yeah. And I also like the language of emoji. You know, that was just that was just delightful. And in that there there is, you know, organizations devoted to this, and that. She’s making a comment that that attorneys kind of have to learn what’s sort of happening in the real world and how people are communicating in the real world, you know, in order to be aware, and in order to respond appropriately. So I thought that was pretty neat. Yeah.

Greg Lambert 32:18
And the other thing that I wanted to mention was her on the metrics are not magic. But really, she was saying metrics in of themselves, don’t do anything. It’s what you do with the metrics to tell that story, I think is is what she was saying on that. So

marlene gebauer 32:35
and figuring out which ones you want, like that’s well, not only

Greg Lambert 32:39
that, figuring out which one’s the your audience wants. That’s a lot of times we tell the story we want to tell, we don’t necessarily tell the story that our audience needs to to hear. Exactly. That was a great interview, and I’m glad that Jay could join us for that, and I had a good time. All right, well, that wraps up episode number 1111. Marlene, can you believe it? I’m 11 Lucky 11 So that’s episode 11 of The Geek in Review. If you have comments, please tweet us at glambertpod G L A M B E R T, or gave our M on Twitter. Please make sure to subscribe.

marlene gebauer 33:21
What you don’t spell out you don’t spell mine. You just spell yours. Send all the badges

Greg Lambert 33:25
be a you know our M There we go. Just rolls off the tongue nice. It’s not people tell me it’s not like glambertpod glambertpod rolls off

marlene gebauer 33:37
the toe know we can all do that. So

Greg Lambert 33:40
please make sure to subscribe on iTunes or wherever you listen to your favorite podcast. leave a rating and comments so that others can find this as well.

marlene gebauer 33:47
And special thanks to Jae um for joining us today. Also thanks to Kevin MacLeod for his original music.

Greg Lambert 33:54
Thanks to Jae. Thanks, Kevin.

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