This week we welcome Chan Hee-Koh, CEO and co-founder, and Justin Brownstone, Strategic Partnership Lead at FileRead. As legal professionals and tech enthusiasts gear up for LegalWeek, the conversation starts with some lighthearted banter about the best places to visit in New York—including a passionate endorsement of Angelina in Paris’ hot chocolate. However, the discussion quickly turns toward the evolving role of AI in the legal industry and how FileRead is shaping the future of litigation technology.
Chan shares the deeply personal story that inspired FileRead’s creation: his immigrant family’s experience during the 2008 housing crisis. Seeing how legal services were out of reach for many due to the complexity and cost of litigation, he set out to develop a platform that could make legal discovery and fact-finding more accessible and efficient. FileRead focuses on litigation-specific AI applications, aiming to streamline document review, build stronger factual narratives, and uncover hidden stories within vast amounts of case data. The discussion also touches on the industry’s skepticism toward AI and the need for legal tech companies to build trust and demonstrate real value.
The conversation then turns to FileRead’s recent growth and roadmap for 2025. Having secured a $6 million seed funding round and a strategic partnership with Simplify, the company is expanding its capabilities beyond Relativity to offer a standalone AI-powered litigation analysis platform. Justin highlights how FileRead’s technology goes beyond standard eDiscovery tools by enabling instant document analysis, chronology building, and memo drafting—tasks that traditionally take weeks of manual work. The team is also working on developing litigation workflows that will automate complex fact-checking processes, helping lawyers assess case strengths and identify missing evidence more efficiently.
A key theme of the episode is the legal industry’s slow but inevitable adoption of AI. Chan and Justin discuss how legal workflows are fundamentally different from those in other industries due to the uncertainty and unpredictability of litigation. Unlike transactional law, where contracts and compliance processes are more standardized, litigation involves a constantly shifting landscape where new evidence and legal arguments can completely change the direction of a case. The hosts and guests explore how AI is beginning to bridge the gap between human expertise and technological efficiency, making legal work more strategic and less burdened by repetitive document review.
As the episode wraps up, the hosts reflect on the rapid evolution of legal technology. Greg and Marlene note that while AI has been discussed in legal tech for years, the capabilities of large language models (LLMs) have dramatically accelerated in just the last two years. Chan and Justin acknowledge that staying ahead in this fast-moving space requires constant experimentation and adaptation. However, they emphasize that while technology can enhance legal work, people remain at the center of the industry. AI should be seen as a tool that empowers attorneys rather than replaces them. To learn more about FileRead, visit FileRead.com, or reach out directly to Chan and Justin via email.
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Blue Sky: @geeklawblog.com @marlgeb
Email: geekinreviewpodcast@gmail.com
Music: Jerry David DeCicca
Transcript
Marlene Gebauer (00:07)
Welcome to the Geek in Review, the podcast focused on innovative and creative ideas in the legal industry. I’m Marlene Gabauer.
Greg Lambert (00:14)
and I’m Greg Lambert.
Marlene Gebauer (00:15)
This week we’re joined by Chan Koh, CEO and co-founder of FileRead, and Justin Brownstone, strategic partnership lead at FileRead. Welcome to the Geek in Review,
Justin Brownstone (00:25)
Thanks for having us.
Chan-Hee Koh (FileRead) (00:25)
Thanks for having
us.
Greg Lambert (00:27)
All right, so we’ll give a little peek behind the scenes here. We kind of discussed this before we jumped on, so we’ve already talked about all the bad stuff. we wanted to banter around a little bit since legal week’s coming up, and by the time this rolls out, it’d be next week. And so we really kind of wanted to pick you guys’ brain on this, Justin and Chan, and see what is kind of your favorite thing to do while you’re at LegalWeek?
Justin Brownstone (00:54)
Yeah, so I said before I had something to share and it might get me in trouble with Chan because it’s not legal related, but the best hot chocolate in the world, in my opinion, is at a place called Angelina in Paris, walking distance from the Louvre. Other people share this opinion. They, not too long ago, opened a second location in Midtown Manhattan and I…
I’m a big fan of hot chocolate. went there a few years. Yeah. So I recommend we all go, basically. I already reached out to my previous boss, Carla Rydholm at Lex Machina, who I think you may know, Marlene. She said, yeah, should try to make… Yeah, okay, you too, Greg. Yeah, of course. And so we’re going for breakfast. It’s a lovely breakfast. But most importantly, the hot chocolate, you can’t get it anywhere else. You used have to fly to Paris.
Marlene Gebauer (01:20)
Who isn’t? Yes.
Greg Lambert (01:29)
yeah, she’s been on the show.
Marlene Gebauer (01:30)
Yes, we both know her.
Justin Brownstone (01:44)
Now you can get it at least when you’re in New York. And yes, I’m looking forward to learning more about AI tools in legal, but really, no trip to New York’s completely. So I’m going. So if anyone else, anyone listening, I recommend it. But yeah, so I throw it out there. Open invite.
Marlene Gebauer (01:50)
But really it’s the hot chocolate.
Greg Lambert (01:52)
You
Yeah, well, Justin, you should ask AI what’s a good nontraditional thing to pair with hot chocolate and see what kind of crazy answers it comes up with.
Justin Brownstone (02:09)
That’s a great question.
Yeah, well, it comes with an omelet in the morning. So you wouldn’t think eggs and chocolate go well together, you can get that too. I’m serious about this chocolate though. Everyone after they listen to the podcast should go read about it. Anyway, that’s my Legal Week tip.
Marlene Gebauer (02:16)
Yeah, that’s interesting. I figured like a croissant or something like that.
Greg Lambert (02:31)
All right, Chan.
Chan-Hee Koh (FileRead) (02:32)
You
Greg Lambert (02:33)
Can you top that?
Chan-Hee Koh (FileRead) (02:35)
I don’t think I could top that, but I think last year we did something fun. We had a very intimate dinner at Fogo de Chao where we invited some of the leaders in like at these law firms or corporations to come and chat about like why they’re excited about legal week in general. But obviously like we start, we try to subtly talk a little bit of sprinkle AI stuff in there because we are an AI company and just really the opportunity to really meet new people and
I’m a product person at heart, so I want to really understand what pain are you going through and how can we help potentially diagnose that pain. It’s a really chill environment where people can relax, don’t think about it. It’s not really a vendor type of thing, but it’s more of how can we help each other figure out what are the problems that you need solved? Can we solve it? If not, we can obviously introduce you to other people who could help you solve it. Just a sharing of knowledge, which I really like about these types of conferences.
Greg Lambert (03:29)
So you’re a connector.
Chan-Hee Koh (FileRead) (03:31)
I like to say I am. don’t know if I’m doing a great job at it, but I think, yeah.
Greg Lambert (03:37)
Arlene, what’s your favorite thing?
Marlene Gebauer (03:39)
So a couple things. So I like the, and hopefully I get the name right, it’s Legal Week Eve, or Legal Eve, I guess, which is the event that is hosted by Legal Technology Hub. And it’s the night before the conference starts. just basically, everybody who’s in town shows up, and so it’s a great networking opportunity. And I also like the ability to see some of the new vendors that are out there.
Greg Lambert (04:07)
I like the legal week eve. It sounds like you should be trick-or-treating going around. Maybe you can suggest that for next year.
Chan-Hee Koh (FileRead) (04:12)
Ha
Marlene Gebauer (04:15)
Yeah, okay.
Justin Brownstone (04:15)
I was thinking it sounds
like a Jewish holiday, it starts at sundown, Legal Week starts at sundown, the night before. No, okay, just.
Marlene Gebauer (04:18)
Ha
Greg Lambert (04:21)
So this year I totally screwed up my time. So I’m only going to be there Monday and Tuesday. And I immediately have to leave and go Wednesday to, I got to be back at the firm for a big meeting that we have here. And then I turn right back around and I go to Norman, Oklahoma to give a keynote for a conference up there. So.
Chan-Hee Koh (FileRead) (04:28)
GAME
Greg Lambert (04:48)
You know, most times I plan better. This year, really sucked on the… Yeah.
Marlene Gebauer (04:53)
They changed the date too. This is
a month later.
Greg Lambert (04:58)
So that and I’m also, this really exposes something that I’m horrible at and that’s calendar management. that’s my new year’s resolution for March, get that out of the way. So, but I’m looking forward to same thing. I love seeing the new people, but I really love seeing, you know, kind of the old people that this is kind of one or two times a year that I get to meet a lot of folks.
And, and, you know, usually we pass out stickers for the, for the podcast while we’re there. So that’s always fun. Well, that’s great. So looking forward to seeing everybody at legal week, but let’s bring you guys in what, know, for the reason that we actually brought you in, let’s talk about FileRead Chan, I know, I know you’ve got a nice storied history with some good background, but
Marlene Gebauer (05:34)
we become bearing gifts, so.
Greg Lambert (05:54)
Can you talk to us about what inspired you to create FileRead and that background that you have? How did it kind of shape the platform?
Chan-Hee Koh (FileRead) (06:05)
Yeah, absolutely. So the inspiration is that for FileRead is that back in 08, my immigrant parents, we ended up losing our home during the housing crisis, after taking some bad advice. And they didn’t quite know that they could get access to legal services due to their lack of experience working with the legal system. And I really wanted to work on something that could make an impact on this space. And we decided to focus on litigation, specifically e-discovery. And the main reason why I think
legal services are out of reach for a lot of those people is not because of just arbitrary prices, but more due to the uncertainty of the work that needs to be done in order to find a resolution. And so what FileRead is really aimed at is helping address this core part of that litigation process by helping litigation professionals find the facts that matter faster, but also uncover the hidden stories in their data.
Greg Lambert (06:49)
So just to kind of fill that in a little bit, you explain a little bit more about, did you have a specific issue that you were confronting that kind of inspired this?
Chan-Hee Koh (FileRead) (07:03)
not in that sense. think for those, think they just accepted it saying, it’s just part of life. Let’s just move on and go on to the next thing. But, just looking back on it, was like, no, we actually could have potentially, not had that stressful time happen because that really was a very stressful time. was thankfully just in college, but my parents and my younger brother, were definitely going through a lot of things. Cause imagine getting kicked out of your home that you’ve been living and grown up in and for 15 years. And so,
Yeah, just looking back, wanted to really see like that was one of the like a very stressful time and I wanted to use that pain and channel it into something more productive. And I think this was a manifestation of what that is.
Marlene Gebauer (07:39)
Chan I’m really sorry that that happened to your parents. That’s an awful thing.
Chan-Hee Koh (FileRead) (07:45)
Yeah,
no, it’s okay now, but definitely it was very stressful going through that process during that time. Yeah. Yeah, exactly.
Marlene Gebauer (07:48)
Yeah.
Greg Lambert (07:49)
That was a terrible time for a lot of people.
Marlene Gebauer (07:52)
Yeah.
So, Justin, if I’m going to be a potential customer of FileRead, explain what problems I would be facing that would cause me to reach out to solve that issue. So that we can get into some specifics.
Justin Brownstone (08:08)
Yeah, I think about it because I ran into this same problem that I’m going to describe when I first started out as a lawyer. So back in 2009, way back when I was at Quinn Emmanuel on the Washington Mutual Bankruptcy. So out of that same 2008 financial crisis. And JP Morgan dumped, I can’t remember, maybe five million documents on us. I’m not sure if any of them were relevant, but I spent the first six months of my legal career just clicking not relevant for
60 hours a week. And so when I got introduced to Chan, actually by Anand, who you know, Marlene, and I learned that as this tool in Relativity where instead of spending six months to do first level review and then start to build chronologies, figure out if there are hot docs, you can ask immediately, tell me if this information is in here. Write me a memo about this fact that give me a chronology about these key things.
I thought, wow, I wish I had had this. And I know that there must be lawyers who are still using Relativity, still dealing with these problems. Even with all the predictive coding technology out there, I thought this was just an excellent application and a great place to start. And then to tie into what Chan said, I really bought into Chan’s vision for all the litigation-specific workflows that we can build upon once we tackle eDiscovery.
This is where we are now, but there’s obviously a vision beyond that to help lawyers manage all the facts of litigation throughout that process.
Greg Lambert (09:37)
Yeah, well,
before we jump away from Justin, I want to say you’re our, I think at least our third stand-up comic that we’ve had on the…
Justin Brownstone (09:46)
I’m so sorry to hear that, Greg. That is, you
Marlene Gebauer (09:50)
I think we’re a little sorry to hear that too.
Justin Brownstone (09:50)
guys don’t deserve that. Yeah.
Greg Lambert (09:53)
Yeah, yeah,
we should have more than that.
Marlene Gebauer (09:56)
We
Justin Brownstone (09:56)
Yeah.
Marlene Gebauer (09:56)
should have them all in at the same time.
Justin Brownstone (09:56)
I would love that. You’d think I would know how to work a mic. I really needed your help to get that going, but you know.
Marlene Gebauer (10:02)
you
Greg Lambert (10:02)
Well, you know how to work the room, and that’s more important.
Justin Brownstone (10:05)
Maybe, maybe. there’s
Marlene Gebauer (10:05)
That’s really what you need to do.
Justin Brownstone (10:08)
unfortunately, there
is a correlation between failed lawyers, stand-up comedy, and sales. Like, I’m not sure the exact pipeline, but yeah.
Marlene Gebauer (10:13)
That’s actually that’s that’s true. That’s actually true. And
Greg Lambert (10:15)
Ha
Marlene Gebauer (10:17)
of course, like we should also say that this is chance first podcast. We think he’s doing an excellent job.
Greg Lambert (10:21)
Yeah.
Chan-Hee Koh (FileRead) (10:21)
yeah.
Justin Brownstone (10:22)
Yeah.
Greg Lambert (10:25)
Well done, well done. So we make it practically painless, think. Mostly painless. Well, Chan, I know there’s been a lot of significant developments over the past couple of years with FileRead, including, I know you get a $6 million seed funding round. There’s a partnership with Cimplify
Chan-Hee Koh (FileRead) (10:25)
Thank you.
Justin Brownstone (10:26)
I read.
Marlene Gebauer (10:30)
I think we make it, we try, we try.
Chan-Hee Koh (FileRead) (10:30)
Yeah.
Greg Lambert (10:49)
Talk to us a little bit about how these developments have enhanced your ability to improve the product, work with customer base, all of the good stuff that you want to do instead of trying to track down more money.
Chan-Hee Koh (FileRead) (11:03)
Yeah, definitely. one of the biggest things that I think that funding gave us was sort of that legitimacy, especially when you’re starting out as a startup, very unproven, no one knows who you are and why should they trust you? Why should they listen to you? Why you, right? And so that was one of the things that helped us really get in the door. And we were knocking on every door we could. Our first legal week was, think, the one right after COVID. And that’s where we met.
we’re like, wow, there’s an entire industry full of not just legal, but litigation specifically. This industry just has a lot of individuals who really want to do better for the industry in general. And I think the technology that we noticed that they were using was, I would say still it’s gotten a lot better, but I think it’s still far behind when it comes to some of the more other industries that are equipped with Optech.
I have a product background, come from a tech background and the adoption curve there is much steeper than what we see in legal. But we also started to appreciate that there is a reason why it takes a long time. It’s because the work that they’re doing is very, it’s quite unlike the work that other industries do and really helped us really gain a little bit more respect for it. And so what that helped us really do was do more, how do we talk to more customers? How do we get more reach in terms of get more people to…
come talk to us, understand their pain. And then that helps us really narrow in on the things that we’re like, I think what we can do versus what they need. There’s like the overlaps and how can we find more of those overlaps and how can we start to find and build products around those that really support their use cases and needs that they currently have today.
Marlene Gebauer (12:37)
can I pull on that thread a little bit? So you’re saying that like legal is different than other industries. Can you expand upon that? how are we snowflakes? How are they different? And just kind of highlight that because I think it’s important for people to understand that there is in fact a difference than just product in general.
Chan-Hee Koh (FileRead) (13:02)
Yeah, so I think when it comes to my product background, I can only really pull from my experience from what I noticed. So for example, I used to be a product manager at a series B company called Baller TV. And there, when you get told to do a certain project, you expect certain outcomes to happen. But in litigation, outcomes aren’t necessarily guaranteed. That’s why I think it makes lot of effort.
goes in just to make sure that you can get the best outcome possible for your client. But just a lot of that work that needs to be done, you’re not going to know it until you see the documents, until you see the arguments that you’re trying to make, your other side is making. And that also kind of helps us understand why the industry is structured in that sense as well. And so because the work that needs to be done is a bit unclear when it comes to the sheer volume, you don’t know what you’re going to find.
you have some idea what you’re looking for, but you may not find it, maybe it’s somewhere else, or you might find something else that potentially just derails the entire line of thinking that you initially had. And so because of that uncertainty, think we’re trying to help, I think the product that we’re building is like, how do we help reduce the risk of that do you figure out what you don’t know quickly? What are the unknown unknowns? And then help you kind of work through the knowns that…
work through and validate the knowns that you are trying to prove in order to make your case.
Greg Lambert (14:18)
Yeah, I think we had on a couple of weeks ago, we had Zach Posner on and he talked about what it was something I really liked and it kind of stuck into my brain and that was the broken verticals that the legal industry has and how it’s one of the last, I think he called it the C-suites to work on these.
Chan-Hee Koh (FileRead) (14:24)
Mm.
Greg Lambert (14:42)
kind of workflow issues. So were you kind of surprised that you had legal, is a $1 trillion yearly industry, had some basic workflow problems that you could come in and fix?
Marlene Gebauer (14:58)
you
Chan-Hee Koh (FileRead) (15:00)
I wouldn’t call them, some of them are basic obviously, but I think really just trying to understand like why is it being done that way? And I think especially in litigation, because just understanding that level of uncertainty is really, really high. Because you don’t know what you’re going to get until you get the documents in. Even once you’ve gotten documents, you may need to go and ask for more because maybe they didn’t give you anything or they’re trying to bury you in a ton of documentation.
And so it’s going to be hard to figure out what you’re looking for. You don’t even know what you’re looking for sometimes. And so I don’t think I was surprised. I think I really started to appreciate and understand why attorneys have to work a certain way. But I think regardless of that, I think there’s a lot of opportunity for just really working with alongside them to help them. Look, no one wants to be stuck in a room looking through documents like 10 hours a day. I think that’s really…
not what the human mind was built for, not what they went to law school for most likely. And so I think how do we get them to do more of the strategic things, the more creative things that really add value for the people that actually need their legal services rather than the things that think our machines frankly can do a lot better now that the technology has gotten to this point.
Marlene Gebauer (16:09)
So Justin, you had hinted a little bit about a roadmap for FileRead. And I’m wondering, what is that roadmap for 2025 and maybe the following year?
Justin Brownstone (16:19)
Yeah, so the biggest focus right now is releasing our own standalone platform, which won’t be eDiscovery platform to be clear. It’ll be the ability for users to do what they already do inside FileRead, but without having to have the documents in Relativity in the first place. So if you want to analyze 100,000 millions of documents, generate chronologies, fact memos, hopefully within a month, you’ll be able to do that outside Relativity. And then the rest of the year,
we’re working on building what we call litigation workflows. So we’re specifically focused on litigation. A lot of tools are doing other things with contracts. But to build those, we need to first do some basic work like extraction. So if you have a large volume of complaints or other pleadings, legal documents, we can identify key parts of those documents and extract them so that ultimately later down the year we can help you identify
all the facts that support what you’re saying within depositions and discovery responses and pleadings or we can have you upload a complaint and tell you right away are the allegations supported by the documents. So a lot of it right now you can do with the tool. So you could take the tool and you could one by one ask is this allegation supported? Is this allegation supported? We want to automate that and we’re calling that a litigation workflow but the idea being
we see you’ve uploaded a complaint. Do you want to know if you’re missing any support for your allegations? Yes? Okay. Here you go. the first step though is getting that platform built and that’s coming out imminently and then we’ll turn maybe to extraction and then later this year we’ll certainly have a lot of those tools with the idea that I’m probably sharing too much but we think we’ll have a really big push Q3, Q4 to get large litigation departments to adopt FileRead.
Marlene Gebauer (18:06)
Well, I mean, it sounds like you have a very productive year to look forward to. So that’s terrific.
Justin, you again, you had mentioned that there’s different tools out there. know, some of them are for transactional, but actually, you know, when we were talking to Zach, there’s a lot of litigation things that seem to be coming out this year. That seems to be a big area now. And I had said that I’m really happy about this because as a former litigator, like, I think we ought to get our due, you know, it’s like.
Justin Brownstone (18:25)
yeah.
I totally agree. yeah,
I think the technology enables it now in a way it wasn’t before. It was simpler to automate parts of contractual analysis than it was to build things that were useful for litigation, which is… Yeah, yes. Well, yeah, exactly. Yeah.
Marlene Gebauer (18:49)
It’s more standardized, I think, than litigation as Chan was saying.
and I’m saying, you know, there’s a lot of these tools that are coming out on the market. So, you know, how do you differentiate, you know, FileRead from, from the rest of the pack? what is unique about it that it brings to the table?
Justin Brownstone (19:07)
So the number one thing right now is Relativity. I if you want to do this type of work where your documents already live and you have Relativity, then we’re your only option. know, others may come out, but there is a process involved where you could try to do what we do in these other tools and some claim they can. But if you want to do it directly within Relativity, we’re a native application within Relativity we’re your
your only option. So that’s number one. Number two, I think, is accuracy over large volume production. So we’re not just a wrapper. We use several models, including our own citations model that we built so that we tie everything within a memo to a document for support. And that is very accurate over large volumes, millions of documents. And I think there are others, again, that
You can maybe try to ask questions, but they’re not purpose-built for generating work product over large volumes. It means we haven’t played in the small areas yet where we’re not doing upload 300 contracts and we’ll tell you which terms are different, but if you want an accurate chronology over a million, I think we really differentiate ourselves with the quality of our output. And then…
The third is where Chan gets mad at me, but I say cost effectiveness. You know, we’re newer. I think we need to be competitive on price, but maybe that’s kind of gauche for a podcast to mention money, but that is a differentiator.
Chan-Hee Koh (FileRead) (20:29)
You
Greg Lambert (20:30)
Look.
Marlene Gebauer (20:31)
kind of curious, who do you envision being the end users? mean, does the litigation support people? Is it the attorneys? Who’s sort of the most common end user?
Justin Brownstone (20:41)
Yeah, we’re seeing all the above, you Chan, you meet with clients all the time. Maybe you should speak to.
Chan-Hee Koh (FileRead) (20:46)
Yeah, so it really runs the gamut, but I think the best folks that are geared towards using this would be the attorneys. It can be staff attorneys, not so much, but more of like the associates of ones that are actually doing the, once the first level review’s been done and they want to quickly do more targeted searches to understand whether or not a particular claim that they’re examining has any merit in those documents, or if they know that it has merit, quickly find those answers in the documents themselves.
few examples I can come up with, for a particular litigation, there was this one document that was marked not hot in first level review, but once the fact development was, the factual narrative was built out, FileWrit actually picked it up as relevant. And during depo prep that ended up, so they ended up promoting that document to an exhibit. And then during deposition prep, FileRead became a crucial tool in helping them really do those targeted searches on the hot documents.
Um, to zero in on particular And then another one is like, especially like when you get a document, large document production from the other side, you want to quickly get an idea of what to look for, who are the people that are referenced, and get an idea of if there’s other people that we need to ask for more documentations from that’s one way to do that. Or if someone’s reference or CC it on a communication, just using their first name, FileRead was actually able to give them a way to quickly verify who that person was so that they could.
either decide to, hey, we need to go and get documents from this person. We don’t have any documents in this person. This person looks important to this case. So things like that are the ways that FileWrite has added a tremendous amount of value to the team.
Marlene Gebauer (22:21)
So Chan, I’ll kind of continue here. It’s like pulling out your crystal ball. What do you think is going to be the biggest challenge or opportunities for legal tech and maybe legal tech in the litigation space over the next few years?
Chan-Hee Koh (FileRead) (22:33)
Definitely. think biggest challenge, one of the things is that we’re starting to see a lot of, mean, we were early in this space, I think, back in, I 21, our first legal week, people were not sure who we were and why we were even useful because AI search on your documents, why would I ever need that? But then kind of ChatGPT came out like the year after and they were like, I get it. You guys were…
That makes sense. so, so we were definitely early there. And I think there with these tools becoming a lot more or these are these large language models becoming a lot more commoditized. It’s going to enable a lot of different functionality that people are going to be building. So I think the challenge is here. It’s like, what are the things together? So many ideas that we want to pursue. What are the key things that we should be focusing on? And I think Justin alluded to several of those, but I think really just
making sure that we stay focused and don’t get distracted on the other cool things that look promising, but potentially it just be like a, almost like a party trick and not really add a lot of value. So really trying to hone in on that, talk to more people, talk to as many people as possible, really understand which part of the process can we add the most value and just focusing on those and then continuing to build a more comprehensive product suite that encompasses the entire litigation cycle.
Greg Lambert (23:43)
Justin, does your oversharing crystal ball say anything?
Marlene Gebauer (23:48)
You
Justin Brownstone (23:49)
You know, think it’s a really exciting time. I mean, I started in legal tech almost a decade ago now, and everyone was talking about AI, and AI is going to be such a difference maker. And I’m not sure it really changed anything. And now it feels like these large language models are fundamentally changing the practice of law. keep thinking…
Yeah, but they can’t do X and then a new model comes out and they can. So, you it’s like the, you probably saw the Bob Ambrogi write up comparing VLex research and Westlaw, I think it was co-counseling, Lexis Plus. you know, I thought it was like, okay, it’s not quite what you’d want from a junior associate yet, but it’s probably gonna get there. So, you know, I don’t know what’s coming, but I think it’s…
It feels like the model is going to have to change significantly for how firms are structured and operate because these tools are too good.
Greg Lambert (24:47)
Yeah, the last decade and the last two years feel completely, you know, because I remember talking about, know, predictive coding, know, extractive AI. But I mean, the LLMs have kind of just made it a whole new ballgame. And it seems like every week there’s some significant change. So this isn’t on the script, but I’m just curious as
Justin Brownstone (24:56)
Right.
Chan-Hee Koh (FileRead) (24:57)
You
Marlene Gebauer (24:57)
Action. Yeah.
Justin Brownstone (25:04)
That’s what I think, yeah.
Marlene Gebauer (25:07)
Something new.
Chan-Hee Koh (FileRead) (25:08)
Something
new.
Greg Lambert (25:13)
As you see the rapid change, is there a lot of scrambling on your side to kind of, you know, one, understand it and two, catch up on the changes?
Chan-Hee Koh (FileRead) (25:24)
think as a tech company, you’re kind of always trying to see what’s out there that’s new and seeing, and we’re obviously experimenting with all the tools that do come out. And so I don’t know you had a chance to try deep research. Maybe I’m using it wrong, but I haven’t had good success with it. Maybe I’m prompting wrong. But if you’re on Twitter, like tech Twitter, like there’s this professor who was talking about how it was able to, I think I’m paraphrasing here. I think he said like,
He fed it some of his research and it came up with an entirely new molecular model that potentially could be entirely game changing. And so that sounds very nice in assuming it’s true, but I think these types of tools, we’re starting to kind of go from a functional, like a point solution that solves a very specific problem to more of like an agentic type of thing where the model itself can start to plan things, make decisions, and then call different functions that it needs to.
in order to do that. And then we’re definitely seeing a lot of that and we’re incorporating a lot of that internally to see how can we start to incorporate some of these tools that are out there to apply to the legal industry. Because when you’re doing document review or doing like, if you’re writing a brief, you’re not just doing one thing, you’re doing multiple things all at once. And so these tools are actually perfect to help, these tools are now perfect to help orchestrate those type of tasks so that you can do that, so that attorneys can actually do those types of work.
even better or even do it faster or even make it more effective or consider other areas of inquiry that they couldn’t because they just were told so time constraint or deadline constraint. And so I think that’s really where I see a lot of opportunity for us. I with especially also these new models as they come out, I DeepSeek also definitely put a chill on the OpenAI, Anthropic, these foundational model providers debate. So
that’s going to be definitely interesting as well. And so it’s actually a good thing for us like application builders. And that was always, think, the ultimate winners in this space is the people that actually transform those functionalities and actually add value.
Marlene Gebauer (27:15)
I want to add to that question. you know, you’re preparing and you’re kind of keeping up. How do you counsel your clients in terms of, of this rapid change? Because as, as we know, firms are absolutely geared for rapid change. And so, you know, how do you, how do you kind of coach them along? I mean, they’re, you know, they’re seeing, this, this new gadget, that new gadget, you know, the next new thing. And so how do you.
Greg Lambert (27:30)
Absolutely.
Chan-Hee Koh (FileRead) (27:31)
Ha
Marlene Gebauer (27:42)
coach them in terms of both what you’re doing and the value it brings and also how to handle that sort of rapid fire change that they’re gonna have to get accustomed to.
Chan-Hee Koh (FileRead) (27:54)
Yeah, so I think one of the benefits of working with us is that we consider it like a partnership. And the goal is not just to give you a product, sell you a product, and all right, good luck with it, have fun with it. The goal is like, how do we learn more about what you need from us or what you think these tools can help solve? And we’re there to help you guide whether or not it actually can or maybe if it does, and it’s applicable to potentially other clients that may have that similar problem.
then we start to think about, let’s prioritize some of these things so that we can add even more value than the current tool is actually doing. We also offer CLE programs with our clients as well. especially in this space of, as you see with like rapid growth, we want to also be play a part in educating the industry, not just providing tools and extracting value from the industry. think it’s an area where I think people are very scared and understandably so, I think.
not just attorneys, but almost all knowledge workers in general, especially with these large image models, are definitely scared about how this is going to change the way that they operate. And so our goal is like, no, this is like, if you want to really stay ahead, I think you should definitely look to adopt these and figure out what is your unfair advantage that you can build by using tools a certain way. And if you can do that, then it doesn’t really matter what the next thing is, because people are going to trust other people. They’re not going to trust tools. They’re going to always trust the people that
have used these tools and use it in a way that they can understand and they can add value. And yeah, I think that’s really the ultimate goal for us on how we coach and provide guidance on the rapid change.
Greg Lambert (29:26)
Great. Well, that sounds like a great place to wrap up. So Chan Koh, congratulations on your first completed podcast episode. You did well. And Justin Brownstone, both from FileRead, thank you both for taking the time to talk with us on The Geek in Review.
Chan-Hee Koh (FileRead) (29:36)
thank you.
Marlene Gebauer (29:45)
Thanks guys.
Justin Brownstone (29:46)
Thanks so much. Thanks.
Chan-Hee Koh (FileRead) (29:46)
All right, thanks, Greg Thanks, Marlene.
Marlene Gebauer (29:48)
And thanks to all of you, listeners, for taking the time to listen to the Geek in Review podcast. If you enjoyed the show, share it with a colleague. We’d love to hear from you on LinkedIn and Blue Sky. I did it.
Greg Lambert (29:58)
go, you did it, you did it.
So Chan and Justin, we’ll make sure that we put links on the show notes, but for those listening, what’s the best way that people can learn more about FileRead or Connect with you guys?
Chan-Hee Koh (FileRead) (30:11)
Yeah, you can visit our website at FileRead.com or obviously you can also email me at Chan@fileread.com I try to be very attentive even though I have over 2000 messages, but if it’s not spam and I think it’s if people are actually curious about learning more, I do respond pretty quickly.
Marlene Gebauer (30:28)
Great. Justin, any shows coming up you want to plug?
Justin Brownstone (30:31)
You know, small children have forced me to retire somewhat from comedy lately, I’m going to have to… But you can email me at Justin@fileread.com if you have a small theater and need a mediocre comedian. I have solid seven minutes ready to go. I really do at any point in time. So just let me know.
Marlene Gebauer (30:37)
Aww.
Chan-Hee Koh (FileRead) (30:45)
You
Greg Lambert (30:52)
Yep. Unlike a band, Justin doesn’t have to lug any equipment around. He just has to show up.
Marlene Gebauer (30:55)
That’s true. That’s true.
Justin Brownstone (30:57)
That’s true. That is very true. Yeah.
Marlene Gebauer (31:01)
And speaking of bands, as always, the music you hear is from Jerry David DeCicca Thank you, Jerry.
Greg Lambert (31:06)
Thanks Jerry, and go out and buy his new album. Alright, see you guys later.
Marlene Gebauer (31:08)
Yes, buy it.
Bye.
Chan-Hee Koh (FileRead) (31:11)
Thank you.
Justin Brownstone (31:12)
Thanks
so much. Bye everyone.