The Geek In Review Ep. 80 – Yes, And … A Return to KM 101 with Eugene Cipparone

• Why do we wave at the end of Zoom Meetings?? If you catch yourself waving at the end of a video conference, you’re not alone. (2:20)
• Facemasks aren’t just for safety… they are also fashionable! There are definitely some fashionable facemasks out there that will help you stay safe, and also look good in the process. (3:15)
• Leading a Remote Team During a Crisis. While all problems are communications problems, there are ways to create a balanced and delegated communication process for remote teams. This inspiration helps identify a few other processes that help with the issues of leading people remotely. (4:33)
• Like to Cook and Eat, but your also competitive? There’s an app for that. The Food Network recently created an app that lets you interact with some of their celebrity chefs while also teaching you cooking and even knife skills in the kitchen. (6:30)

Transcript

[00:00:00] Speaker B: One little thing, and I didn’t cut it off at the very beginning, but my firm is Goodman’s. Men’s. Yeah. Not Good Win.

[00:00:06] Marlene Gebauer: I’ll redo it.

[00:00:07] Greg Lambert: We’ll be talking along, and then all of a sudden you’ll hear Marlene go, Goodman’s?

[00:00:14] Marlene Gebauer: And people will be like, ah, I know what happened there. Welcome to The Geek in Review, the podcast focused on innovative and creative ideas in the legal industry. I’m Marlene Gebauer.

[00:00:32] Greg Lambert: And I’m Greg Lambert. So Marlene, you and I sometimes we’re, I’d say, accidental comedians on this podcast.

[00:00:38] Marlene Gebauer: Sometimes, sometimes.

[00:00:39] Greg Lambert: But this week we decided to bring on a professional to show us how it’s really done.

[00:00:44] Marlene Gebauer: Yeah, since this is our version of Star Search, I’ll tell you, I discovered Eugene via a professional gig, a product design sprint for a famous big time information and tech company. I was contacted by my friend and colleague, Xena Applebaum, who got me this gig. And disclaimer, this was not a paid gig. I don’t have a SAG card.

[00:01:06] Speaker B: Anyway, Eugene was also one of the participants in the sprint. And when Xena casually dropped that he had another life as a standup comedian, well,

[00:01:15] Marlene Gebauer: I just had to get him on the show.

[00:01:17] Greg Lambert: Well, of course we had to get him on the show.

[00:01:19] Marlene Gebauer: Of course we did.

[00:01:20] Greg Lambert: Yeah, that was fun.

[00:01:22] Speaker B: Well, in addition to our discussion with Eugene, I took a personal privilege this week and asked Michelle Cosby, the current president of the American Association of Law Libraries, to come on and discuss what to expect from the virtual conference that’s happening between July 13th and 17th. You know, I really had to tip my hat to Michelle because this has been a crazy year. And I hope that members who listen to the podcast are supporting AALL by attending the conference. So I know many of our conference budgets were cut this year. So I’m going to throw a challenge out to directors or chiefs out there who have staff who are wanting to attend these online sessions, but the staff themselves can’t afford the $99 rate. You know, find a way to get them registered. Go find some grants, reach into your pocket.

[00:02:06] Marlene Gebauer: I did.

[00:02:07] Greg Lambert: You know, show, show people that professional development is important even when the budgets are slashed. All right, enough of that. Let’s get into this week’s Information Inspiration. I got two, Marlene, but one’s really quick. So when you sign off of a Zoom or a WebEx, do you wave goodbye?

[00:02:27] Marlene Gebauer: I do. I do.

[00:02:29] Greg Lambert: Well, you’re not alone. So Kaya Yurlev from CNN Business interviewed a number of experts and asked why it is that we do that. And not surprisingly, it’s because we miss our human connections when we’re connecting with our fellow coworkers and peers on these video conferences. In a way, it makes that act of clicking on the X button to close out the window a little less awkward. So, you know, don’t think you look weird by waving goodbye. You’ll find you’re not alone.

[00:02:57] Marlene Gebauer: I look weird in other ways, but honestly, I do it because most of the time I’m on mute, and then oftentimes you don’t have time to turn it back, and everyone’s like, Bye, and so you just wave because at least you’re kind of acknowledging to people that you’re on mute and then oftentimes you don’t have time to turn it back and, you know, everyone’s like bye. And so you just, you wave because at least you’re kind of acknowledging to people that you’re like, yep, I heard you and see you next time. Well, one of my inspirations has to do with surprise fashion.

[00:03:21] Greg Lambert: From you?

[00:03:22] Marlene Gebauer: Yeah, crazy. So as you know, masks are a bit of a necessity now. So, of course, it didn’t take long for the reviews of most of the favorites to come out. Now, why put out a review? So, you know, best overall, best lightweight, best with extras, most comfortable. I have several now. I have some two-ply ones. I have a respirator one. I have a 3D one that takes into account for your nose and balaclavas, you know, because it’s like shoes, right? I mean, you need a different one for different events, depending on what you’re doing. You know, if you’re riding your bike versus going to the supermarket, you’re not going to be wearing the same thing. So if you’re in a market for masks, check out the Wired reviews. And oh, oh, just as an aside, I heard on Make Me Smart that now, you know, masks are truly becoming a fashion item. And as a result, women are really upping up the game with eye makeup, which is terrible for me because I’m not so good with the eye makeup. But but I will tell you, the fake lashes game is real, people.

[00:04:32] Greg Lambert: Yes, it is. All right. So here’s one that’s a little more serious. You know, we all are leading teams during this crisis or at least on a team. So while you may think that many of us are experts at leading a team by remotely leading a team by now, you’d be mistaken. So Kevin Costanza from Seed IP Law Group in Seattle and Mark Evans from Smart and Bigger in Toronto gives some tips to think about and how to successfully lead a remote team. And Marlene, guess what the big problem is? Just guess what the problem is.

[00:05:10] Marlene Gebauer: What are our problems? I am I am going to let you I’m going to let you take this. I’m going to let you take it because I know what it is. But this is your inspiration.

[00:05:20] Greg Lambert: The big problem is communication. So I’m shocked, you know, but just checking in with your team is not enough. You have to be able to organize that communication in a way that works for the team. And that also means communications need to be delegated so the right people are engaging. If you’re on a call with your team and you’re the only one talking, that’s not communication. In addition to communication, we need to make sure that our teams have the right tools and support for those tools. Finally, we need to be able to act quickly to the needs of our teams, but also have a clear plan, long range on where we’re going as a unit. So working from home as a team is tough. But Costanza and Evan say that, quote, firm leaders need to be prepared, engaged, transparent, empathetic and supportive. Done well, leadership under such times can actually result in increased trust, respect and loyalty across the firm, unquote.

[00:06:21] Marlene Gebauer: Well, you know, you made me feel bad because now you’ve done a serious one and I have yet another light-hearted.

[00:06:27] Greg Lambert: Bring us back up. Bring us back up.

[00:06:29] Marlene Gebauer: Bring us back up. OK, so in theme for today, I have a celebrity app to discuss. Greg, you know, I love to eat. He’s like, I’m not touching that.

[00:06:44] Greg Lambert: I am not saying a word.

[00:06:47] Marlene Gebauer: Well, listeners, he knows I love to eat and to cook. So the Food Network has an app that has been dubbed the Peloton of Food. You not only get the recipes like you do when you do like an online search, you can interact with the chefs as they work through a recipe. So it’s like, hey Bobby, how long do you keep that steak on the grill to get that perfect medium? And I know, you know, what if I substitute dried onions for fresh in that meatloaf? And Ina does a great meatloaf, by the way. And they have, this is what I’m really excited about, they have live knife skills sessions.

[00:07:26] Greg Lambert: That sounds dangerous.

[00:07:28] Marlene Gebauer: Well, it’s supposed to make you safer in the kitchen. But this sort of star interaction costs money. It’s about forty dollars a year. And, you know, as far as I’m concerned, the knife skills class alone might be worth that, you know. But here’s the downside. Not so much chefs of color participation. And apparently Food Network is working on this. But I just find this surprising. I mean, as a watcher of Food Network that, you know, it didn’t address this coming right out of the gate. I mean, they have hosts and chefs of color on the networking program, so I’m not sure why they didn’t, you know, include them in the app right away. But I am glad that they are making adjustments. And that wraps up this week’s Information Inspirations.

[00:08:13] Greg Lambert: Well, Marlene, this year’s AALL theme for its conference is Unmasking Your Potential. Now, this was meant to be a tip of the hat to the city of New Orleans, but with the pandemic, the need to wear masks just to keep us safe, it’s become a symbol of hope for the future. As we climb out of this crisis, I hope we finally do get to unmask. So I asked Michelle Cosby to come on and talk with me about the upcoming annual conference and what the attendees should expect from the new and unique educational experience. Michelle Cosby, president of AALL and the director of Temple University School of Law Library. I’ve asked you to come on to the show to discuss the upcoming virtual annual conference for AALL. So Michelle, I know this year has been one challenge after another for you, and I’m glad to see that you seem to be holding up okay. I’m glad to see that you seem to be holding up OK.

[00:09:11] Eugene Cipparone: Thanks, Greg. Thank you for having me. I’m really excited to talk about this annual meeting. We had the theme of Unmasking Our Potential, which when I envisioned it, I had no idea what it would mean for 2020 post-coronavirus. Yeah. But we’ve moved this conference virtually and we were able to offer it at a very low cost. It is $99 for AALL members. It’s $149 for non-members.

[00:09:41] Greg Lambert: All right. So how’s the preparation gone so far for this?

[00:09:44] Eugene Cipparone: It’s been very interesting. AMPC has had to do a lot more work than they originally thought. Originally with AMPC, we would meet in October, select all of our programming and then just have coordinators from there. So basically, we had to redo the AMPC process. We had to reach out to our coordinators and speakers to see who would be interested in doing live recorded sessions and who would want to do pre- recorded sessions. So it’s been a lot of work, but we’ve got some really great programming.

[00:10:15] Greg Lambert: So tell me a little bit about the conference. What should an attendee expect?

[00:10:20] Eugene Cipparone: So the conference will happen during the week of July 13th through 17th. So an attendee on the first day, we will have our Partner Solutions Day.

[00:10:30] Greg Lambert: So this is our virtual exhibit hall where all registrants can explore products, talk with vendors. So they’re still able to get that experience and get any new products if they need them for their firms or libraries. All right. And Tuesday, I know you’ve got the keynote speaker, Jim Kwik. Can you tell me a little bit about what we should expect from him?

[00:10:51] Eugene Cipparone: Yes, I’ve been a fan of Jim Kwik for many years. He has a popular podcast called Quick Brain with Jim Kwik. He’s a learning expert and he’s also just recently released his new bestseller book, Limitless. So when Jim speaks to us, he will be giving us an overview of the Limitless technique. Then I’ll have a Q&A session with him to find out more about his learning tips. And then we’ll open it up for members to ask Jim questions.

[00:11:20] Greg Lambert: So the conference itself, there’s going to be three days of live sessions, and that’s going to be July 14th, 15th, and 16th. With the live sessions, what should the attendees expect?

[00:11:33] Eugene Cipparone: Right, so during that time, we’ll have over 20 live educational sessions on cutting-edge topics and trends for the legal information industry. The sessions will be running concurrently, so you will have a variety of sessions to choose from. And each session will be about an hour long, so we’re able to offer multiple sessions per day for registrants.

[00:11:55] Greg Lambert: So in addition to the live sessions, I know there’s some prerecorded sessions that’s going to be released the following week. Can you tell me a little bit more about that?

[00:12:03] Eugene Cipparone: Yeah, so the week after we will be releasing about 25 additional pre- recorded sessions that all registrants will have access to. We do know that people’s time is valuable, so they can continue to spread out their learning experience over multiple weeks and watch sessions as it fits best with their schedule.

[00:12:22] Greg Lambert: So I know we all have great intentions to sit down and watch the live sessions, but sometimes work gets in the way. So if I have to miss a live session, can I catch it after?

[00:12:34] Eugene Cipparone: Yeah, absolutely. All attendees will have the ability to go back and watch any of the live stream sessions at a later time. And they can also then also watch those prerecorded sessions as well.

[00:12:45] Greg Lambert: So I know the conference wraps up on Friday at 1 p.m. Eastern with the general business meeting and the members open forum, which is typical for even a live session. So what’s covered in these meetings and is it just limited to the attendees of the conference or can any of the members attend?

[00:13:06] Eugene Cipparone: Well, the one great thing about having this virtually is that we are really able to open up the members meeting to every member. So you do not have to be registered for the conference to attend the meeting, which will be, as you said, on July 17th at 1 p.m. Eastern Central. We will have a regular meeting, which will go over the finances. We will go over highlights for the year. We will have a passing of a gavel where I will give the gavel to Emily Florio, who is president-elect. And we will also learn about the 2021 conference in Cleveland.

[00:13:41] Greg Lambert: Well, I hope we all actually get to go live to Cleveland next year. Well, I know it’s been a challenging year for you, Michelle, as a member of AALL and as a former president. I appreciate what you’ve done this year. So thanks for coming on and talking about the conference.

[00:13:58] Eugene Cipparone: Thanks, Greg.

[00:14:05] Marlene Gebauer: Today we welcome Eugene Ciparone, the Director of Professional Support at Goodman’s LLP. In addition to his day job, Eugene is a stand-up comic and a former troupe member of the Second City Improv in Toronto.

[00:14:18] Greg Lambert: Eugene, welcome to the show.

[00:14:20] Speaker B: Thanks for having me.

[00:14:22] Marlene Gebauer: So, Eugene, when I first met you, we were part of a product advisory team. And I remember distinctly that you had long, curly hair and a full beard. Then I looked at your Goodman’s picture to prep for the show and I barely recognized you. I thought, who’s this fresh faced man? And what did he do with you, Eugene?

[00:14:41] Speaker B: That’s actually my more typical corporate look back when we had things called barbershops. The long, curly hair and the beard are something I tend to do more in the wintertime. But I’m finding that everything, everything 1970s is back. So I sort of have this Joni and Chachi hair, a little more Joni in the morning and a little more Chachi with a lot of product. Not doing the beard so much anymore because it’s coming in far too white for my liking.

[00:15:08] Greg Lambert: Well, not that there’s anything wrong with that.

[00:15:10] Speaker B: Not that there’s anything wrong with that.

[00:15:11] Marlene Gebauer: Not at all, Greg. And well, I mean, as someone who grew up in the north, I totally understand the longer hair in the wintertime. So I am right with you on that. So can you tell us a little bit about yourself and how you came into your current role?

[00:15:26] Speaker B: So going back to the beginning, I’m a 1992 University of Toronto law grad. And I articled and had my first career as an M&A lawyer at a large Canadian firm called Osler’s. I was at Osler’s for five years in their Toronto office, and then I was lucky enough to be transferred to their small New York office in the late 90s, which was a really fun time. I ended up moving back to Toronto just a few months before 9-11. And it didn’t take me long to realize that I really liked the small New York office over the really large Toronto office. And I decided to leave the practice of law entirely, which I did in 2002. Didn’t quite know what I was going to do then, but I ended up doing a lot of traveling and I started doing improv and sketch and stand up comedy at Second City. I did that for about three years. And then when it was time to dust off the law degree, I ended up in my current role first as the knowledge management director at Goodman’s. I started Halloween of 2005. And since then, I also manage the firm’s risk management and legal technology and innovation programs.

[00:16:41] Marlene Gebauer: Well, I think it was definitely a treat and not a trick.

[00:16:45] Speaker B: I always say it was a scary day. I said I started that.

[00:16:49] Greg Lambert: Well, I started a job once on April 1st and– That’s another thing.

[00:16:53] Marlene Gebauer: And they said, no, just kidding.

[00:16:55] Greg Lambert: Yeah. It worked out about as well as you thought it would. So what’s going on with the KM space right now and especially with everything that’s happening around the pandemic?

[00:17:08] Speaker B: Well, I found it was interesting when this first started because it was almost like KM 101. Because we started off immediately, lawyers wanted precedence. They wanted to know what was changing in the law. We were suddenly having to track all the executive orders that were coming down from the levels of government. Employment rules were being changed. How you sign things were being changed. The governments were coming forward with tax changes and support for businesses that were being shut down. And so the first thing I did was essentially create a COVID-19 legal database where we kept all of this information. And I had lawyers flipping me things that they came across, or we would answer questions that lawyers had. And then we would save that material so that we were basically building up these resources. And they covered everything from employment, landlord-tenant, business continuity. There was stuff on the litigation side in terms of what do we do now with the courts as they’re shut down or as they’re trying to reopen digitally. And we just kept building and building this database, working with the library and some of our practice heads.

[00:18:22] Marlene Gebauer: We found that a lot of people are coming and saying, you know, they have a real renewed interest in like the platform. And like, what are all the resources and how do I access this? And I forgot my password. I mean, are you seeing that as well?

[00:18:34] Speaker B: I mean, we had that initially as well. Because of the work I do on the legal tech side, we had some low-tech lawyers that were suddenly working from home. And they hadn’t ever marked up a document without a pen before. And so that was the other component that was really brutal in the first sort of six weeks, getting the KM database for COVID-19 up and running and robust. And then also getting the skill set of some of the more low-tech lawyers or their staff, legal assistants, etc., so that they could function in an environment where our culture is very people-centered. We’re one office. So a lot of it, we have very high interpersonal knowledge management. And so we’re used to just dropping by, you know, the person around the corner and being handed a document or chatting about how they dealt with something similar. And suddenly we’re all isolated, which is the exact opposite of our culture. So dealing with the legal technology side and getting everybody up to speed on the new normal was a big part of what I was doing in the early weeks of this. And I got to give my troops credit because they really did rise to the occasion, both on the mastering the COVID and changes to the law that were coming down the pipe, and then mastering the technologies that we needed to suddenly use and rely on.

[00:20:00] Greg Lambert: Yeah, I found that most of the people I’ve talked to, especially on the KM side, that, you know, this is a 12-year overnight success of spending the last 12 years preparing and begging attorneys to adopt some of these tools and then taking a worldwide pandemic to finally getting them to move. But, you know, the nice thing about that was hopefully you were ready, right?

[00:20:26] Speaker B: You know, I think there’s not a lot of tools that I was piloting or looking at that we don’t have that I wish we had right now, because there’s that aspect of it too, which is with everyone cautious about clients and revenue and so on, there’s a big pressure to kind of not spend if you can avoid it. But I do think that things like, you know, it wasn’t long ago that I was being questioned about cloud based platforms. And now it’s like that, that argument is so over. And they literally did it overnight, like all the things that we’ve kind of been wanting, whether it was, you know, virtual meetings, e-filings at the courts, allowing for, you know, DocuSign type signatures, instead of requiring wet signatures, like just little things like that. They literally just passed an order and made all this stuff fine. And then some of it they’ve made permanent, like they’ve actually brought down outside of executive orders, which are meant to be temporary with the emergency, they’ve actually brought forward legislation to make many of these changes permanent. So I think in the same way that the government’s not going to go back to the way that, you know, things were done in the courts or on a regulatory basis, our lawyers aren’t going back. You’re not going to unlearn how to mark up a document, you know, electronically. You’re not going to unlearn how to sign things without your pen, that kind of thing.

[00:21:59] Marlene Gebauer: Yeah, it’ll be a stylus now.

[00:22:01] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly.

[00:22:03] Marlene Gebauer: You know, it’s amazing to me when you’re talking about this, again, how because of necessity, all of these hurdles that were just seemed insurmountable, it’s like, no, we can’t possibly do that, suddenly are now so easy to do. Everyone’s like, of course, we should do this. And I wish I had the argument about cloud was over for me. It’s not quite over, but we’ve made great strides. So when you’re hearing all of these changes, you know, we’re not going to go back to the way we were doing things. How is the industry handling, you know, operational roles and attorney roles in the wake of this innovation wave and in the wake of the pandemic?

[00:22:45] Speaker B: So I think from the legal side, not much has really changed in terms of the practice areas or the clients or their needs. Because I think with the government programs, they’ve tried to just keep everything kind of the same, so that the government support for businesses, small and large, and for employees that might be laid off temporarily, everybody’s just sort of kept afloat while this passes. Now, it looks like it’s not going to pass so quickly. And we’ve just started in the reopening phase. But if you’re asking about, you know, are we seeing like a massive spike in bankruptcies versus M&A? Not yet. And there may be a time when different practice areas become more involved. I can think for sure on the bankruptcy side, I can think on the landlord-tenant side. We also have a very small employment law group. And I don’t think they ever expected that they’d ever be the center of the universe at our firm as quickly as they suddenly had to. They’ve been amazing. And we have a few that are in the corporate side, and they usually support our transactional practice doing due diligence and employment agreements and so on. And then we have a few that are on the litigation side, that do the wrongful dismissals and stuff like that. But they have been unbelievable, because it’s one of the areas that has been changing so fast. We’ve gone from the how do we, you know, how do our clients like lay off people? How do we access these government support mechanisms? And now we’re already to how do we get them back into the office in a safe way? And what are the employers obligations for maintaining a, you know, a safe work environment? So far, I find that the workload has been very steady in all of our practice areas, as it’s been. And I think we still have months to go before we see whether or not the legal work really does shift and we have to sort of push some resources into certain areas over others. On the support staff side, the, you know, finance, marketing, technology, knowledge management, our CPD and education training programs, everything’s very constant there. We’re all busy. We’re working from home supporting the lawyers as best we can. Legal assistance, there’s been a difference. As I mentioned earlier, with some lawyers suddenly using technology tools, they’re not using their legal assistance necessarily in the same way. So we’re getting the legal assistance up to speed on different ways that they can support their lawyers. I’m finding more of them. I’m opening up accounts in some of our technology platforms so that they can do the administrative work that maybe a junior lawyer might have done, uploading documents in a transaction management tool or something like that.

[00:25:36] Greg Lambert: How well are they adapting to that?

[00:25:38] Speaker B: Pretty well. I mean, you know, so much of this depends on your personal circumstances. Are you, you know, are you living alone and focusing on work? Are you looking after three kids? It really does depend. And that’s across the board. I’ve got lawyers that I get a flurry of emails from them at like 9.30, 10 o’clock. And I know they’ve logged in after putting the kids to bed. And there’s others that I’m getting emails like such a ridiculously early hour in the morning. And I know that, okay, that’s their part of the day when they can work. And then I won’t hear from them for a few hours as they’re, you know, doing whatever those chores are that they have to do. So I do think it depends on the living circumstances. And then there’s a generational side to it. There are some people that are still working the way that they essentially have, maybe with a few new tech tools, but still engaging their legal assistants. And then there’s junior lawyers that weren’t really engaging legal assistants in the office because they’re so tech savvy and doing most everything themselves. And that hasn’t changed. I like to think of this next period, and it’s probably not going to start till after Labor Day, but we’re starting to call it the next normal, as opposed to the new normal. Because we’re going to have a situation where some of us are in the office and some of us aren’t. And we’re a city more, you know, more like a New York, which has a very well used commuter train and transit system. And that’s a lot of people’s big fear about whether or not just wearing a mask is even going to be sufficient. So we’re going to have some people going in. I can walk to work. So I’ve got it really easy. Other people can drive and there’s underground parking in the downtown office towers, but that comes with a price. And we’ll just have to see how people adapt and what their choices are. I don’t imagine we’re going to do anything other than voluntary in the short to medium term. But what 2021 looks like, I’ve got no idea.

[00:27:45] Greg Lambert: How are you addressing things like culture at the firm? Because as we get into this hybrid work model, the culture kind of, I think, brews itself by having people around each other. And how do you think that’s going to go as we move on?

[00:28:04] Speaker B: We pride ourselves on having one of the more unique cultures in the Canadian legal marketplace. We are lucky to have one office. And we’re a tight bunch. And we’re a fun bunch. And like the example I like to give is when we first moved into our current office tower 10 years ago, the internal staircase was not completed. And so for the first six or seven months, we lost touch with each other because people weren’t taking the elevator one floor. And so what we do is every year, and I think it’s coming up, it’s in it’s an early mid July, it’s just before my birthday, we have a party, and we celebrate the birthday of our stairs. And we’re all up and down the stairs, the whole firm gathers, and there’s, you know, our, our different people give speeches, and and there’s, you know, ice cream or a glass of champagne or whatever. But it’s the kind of thing that we do to remind ourselves that we like each other, we like working with each other. And we’re an environment where people get along. The other example I give is the summer students, our summer student program is really all about the culture. You know, it’s not that they’re not doing any legal work, but it’s much more important historically was the bonding, the getting together with the practice groups, we have a strong mentoring program, a lot of shadowing. So they’re so they’re following litigators to court, or they’re, or they’re going to corporate negotiations or transaction closings, whatever. And this is the first year where all of our summer students and we didn’t change their start time or anything. But they’re all working from home, and some of them aren’t even in Toronto. They’re living with their families, you know, in other parts of Ontario or Canada. And so that has been a real challenge for our directors. Our co-directors of our Student and Associates Program, keeping them engaged. And I used to be one of the you know, the go-to people for the students, you know, whenever they needed some lawyer’s instructions reinterpreted, or if they had, you know, there are no stupid questions, but they’ll ask some questions. They want to come in and close the door and just have a little freak out that that’s what I’m here for. And I’m not engaged with them. I’m going to try to host because I used to take them to Second City, as my sort of comedy event that I do with the summer students every summer. This will be the first year I don’t get to do it. So instead, I’m going to be hosting a Zoom cocktail party. And I’m going to be partly interviewing them and finding funny things to talk about on their resumes. And also, I think I’m going to be a prop comic for the first time. I’m going to show them funny things I found when I’ve been like cleaning outdoors and cupboards and stuff. And, you know, trying to try to integrate with them and have a memorable COVID finds, COVID finds, exactly. But I just I feel like that’s part of my role. And I don’t want to like not be that guy. And I send them, you know, little messages and they certainly email me but it’s not the same as that social cultural get together which we’re so proud of in our firm of maintaining.

[00:31:24] Marlene Gebauer: Have you heard anything in terms of how do we figure out like what people are doing and how are they keeping busy all day long when they’re when they’re not, you know, sitting at sitting at their desks?

[00:31:37] Speaker B: On a podcast, for example. Yeah.

[00:31:41] Greg Lambert: Wait, wait, they’re not just sitting at their desk all day? That’s what I thought my people were doing.

[00:31:47] Speaker B: I mean, I think our section heads, they have regularly scheduled group meetings, and it usually, it rarely doesn’t include the entire section, so that would be legal assistance and support staff. So I think there’s a lot of open talk about who’s busy. I think that we’ve tried to stress to people not to just sit back and wait for things, but to try to be proactive, that includes junior lawyers, as well as legal assistance and support staff. And if there’s anything, if they do feel that they have time, if they want to repurpose themselves, if they want to learn a new system and back someone up, we’re kind of hitting a point where almost nobody’s taken any holidays. And so we’re now trying to organize the fact that we need to use up our holiday time before the end of the year. We can’t all take it in December. So we’re trying to start to figure out who’s gonna back up who and what skills do they need to learn in order to be an effective backup. So those are the kinds of things that we’re doing to kind of just keep an eye on people. It’s easier for extroverts than it is for introverts. And I think we have to keep an eye on and think about who our introverts are, who we may need to, those of us that are the extroverts have to kind of reach out and just keep tabs on. Our management sends out a weekly e-mail, just setting out what’s going on in the province or in the city, reminding them about certain activities that the firm still has going on. We also remind them about certain work from home issues, ’cause I’ll put on my risk management hat now, things like we still need to shred and secure client documents and beware of phishing scams and all the usual stuff. put on my risk management hat now, you know, things like we still need to shred and secure client documents and beware of phishing scams, and all the usual stuff, we just like to send out those reminders and it just keeps people engaged. And I think that’s important. But the leadership in our firm is really striving to keep that connection going. The chair of our firm, he sends out every Friday a video of some kind. There was a Mother’s Day one, there was a Father’s Day one, there was, we act for Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment, and he’s on the board. And so the Raptors winning the NBA last year was a really big deal. And so he sent out an anniversary video of those celebrations as they were happening, both in the city and in our firm. And so it’s that kind of thing that we’re always, we have a very creative marketing department that helps with these kinds of ideas and events. I mean, they came up with the birthday party for the stairs, so. And we’re still celebrating it. Like, it’ll be virtual, but we’re still going to be doing something.

[00:34:42] Greg Lambert: Well, you know, one of the good things is the Raptors now will be reigning champs for two years.

[00:34:46] Speaker B: That’s how we’re looking at it. That’s how we’re looking at it.

[00:34:53] Marlene Gebauer: I wanted to just touch on something that you mentioned, like that people are sort of learning new skills and that it seems to be a really good time to do that, to sort of bone up on your education in different areas.

[00:35:09] Speaker B: Yeah, and I think our HR department, they have some very deep programs for legal assistance and support staff in the best of times when we were all in the office. And they’ve made a lot of tweaks to them so that the programs are focused on the new work from home environment and helping people through that. The lawyers in Ontario have a minimum continuing professional development obligations, and we basically have the same thing for our support staff. So they have to do their 12 hours, and it’s broken down into, you know, technical skills, wellness. There’s a bunch of different categories and they’ve just made tweaks on that. Instead of holding those in our training room or in a boardroom at the office, we’re just doing them virtually, but they’re focused on more of the things that are specific to the work from home environment.

[00:36:05] Marlene Gebauer: Well, Eugene, you’ve mentioned that, you did stand up for a while and we also learned that through some of our research connections. So, we have to ask about that because that is so interesting to those of us who don’t do this. So how is your role in law similar and different than stand-up? And what joy does stand-up give you?

[00:36:34] Speaker B: Well, there’s two sides to the comedy. So there’s the improv side, which I think just helps you deal with any situation. It just helps you in any different group of people sort of work the room. You can kind of put on, you know, this face or that face, depending on the circumstances. From the stand-up perspective, I do like to bring the jokes to the table when I’m doing training, and when I’m doing any kind of firm events, when I’m emceeing anything. I also love to train via anecdotes, and the anecdotes are usually very funny ones. And so if I can, you know, say, this is the way we used to do things, and isn’t that ridiculous? And then they’re all nodding their heads. It’s much easier to get them to do something in a new way.

[00:37:21] Marlene Gebauer: And just think 20 years from now, we’ll be saying the same thing about you.

[00:37:25] Speaker B: We’ll be saying the same thing. That’s exactly right. And so I do like to bring the humor and the good-naturedness to it. Change is hard. And I think it’s easier for some people, but it’s really hard for a lot of people. And so from a change management perspective, the secret of my success is make it fun, make it funny. Don’t embarrass somebody or shame them for the way they used to do things, but make light of it. and just say, this is how much better it’s going to be when we all start doing it this way. That’s where the comedy background has been helpful to me. It’s also helped, people tell me that they remember. They’ll remember the anecdote or they’ll remember the joke. People remember stories.

[00:38:11] Marlene Gebauer: They remember that stuff.

[00:38:13] Speaker B: I like to talk about, we’re a big user of Closing Folders, which is a Toronto-based transaction management platform, which is now into the US and the UK. And one of the ways I talk about it is I say, a long, long time ago, like two years ago, this is how we did, you know, closings. And I talk about like all the paper on the boardroom table, and then the associate would have to go with the little staple remover. And then we’d be slip sheeting pages till two in the morning. My very first time blacklining was me with a ruler and a pen while the other articling student was reading the document. I mean, that’s how old I am. This is going back to like ’93, ’94, you know, the early days of blacklining. And the young lawyers just look at me like I’m crazy and they can’t believe that anybody would do things that way. But they remember. They remember the training and they remember that they should be grateful that they have the tools that they have today and don’t have to do things the way we used to do them. that they have the tools that they have today and don’t have to do things the way we used to do They’re terrific within closing folders because I think every time they do something and it’s effortless and automated and they think about what I must have been doing back in the day when it was all about paper and walking your client around and making sure they signed everything properly and then having it all be slip sheeted because changes were made at the 11th hour and they remember those anecdotes.

[00:39:44] Greg Lambert: Yeah, they have no idea what it means to get a bite from a binder.

[00:39:55] Marlene Gebauer: It’s funny, I’ve never had like formal improv type of training, but I do remember like one thing from something that was informal was that you don’t like shut down the conversation. Like someone says something and the idea is you’re supposed to be like and not like shutting down the story. Yes. And those are the magic words in improv. Yes. And.

[00:40:15] Speaker B: Yes. And the other thing is you don’t reply with questions. Those are the two cardinal rules. Yes. And and you don’t respond to somebody with a question. You you you make another statement and then you just keep moving the story and the situation along.

[00:40:34] Marlene Gebauer: I feel this should be a team building exercise really. I really do.

[00:40:38] Speaker B: Second City in Toronto has a corporate side and they do corporate events and they’re fantastic. I don’t know. I don’t know if you have a Second City in in in Houston. I think the closest one might be Las Vegas, but they do do corporate events or there’s other I’m sure there’s other improv organizations and they’re really fun because you get lawyers, you know, especially lawyers doing these things and they have to let their guard down and they have to, you know, not be themselves for a few moments. And it can be pretty funny.

[00:41:12] Greg Lambert: Well, Eugene, this has been fun talking with you. So thanks for taking the time to talk with us.

[00:41:18] Marlene Gebauer: It’s super fun.

[00:41:18] Speaker B: It’s been a pleasure to meet you. Yeah. I hope to keep in touch.

[00:41:23] Marlene Gebauer: We will be in touch.

[00:41:27] Greg Lambert: Well, Marlene, that was a lot of fun. Thanks for getting Eugene on the show. You know, I have to say that I wouldn’t have ever imagined that we’d land a former member of Second City Comedy Troupe on the podcast.

[00:41:39] Marlene Gebauer: But I’m glad you and Eugene found each other through your KM connections. Yeah, I got to say serendipity sometimes works really well. And this was one of them. I really enjoyed listening to Eugene’s insights and Goodman’s.

[00:41:56] Greg Lambert: Yes. And I also thought that the storytelling thing that you guys kind of hit on during the conversation was right. You don’t have to be a comedian, but I think you do have to be able to share some stories, create kind of a storytelling around especially around your training. So good, good insights.

[00:42:16] Marlene Gebauer: Yeah. And I think, you know, you just you just have to relax about it. I mean, you tell stories all the time in your life and it doesn’t have to be something formal. Just sort of think about how you talk naturally with your friends and family and you’re telling them something and, you know, start with that.

[00:42:35] Greg Lambert: Yes. And I see what you did there.

[00:42:40] Marlene Gebauer: Yes. And before we go, we want to remind listeners to take the time to subscribe on Apple podcasts, Spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts. Rate and review us as well. If you have comments about today’s show or suggestions for a future show, you can reach us on Twitter at @GabeBauerM or @Glambert, or you can call the Geek & Review hotline at 713-487-7270. And as always, the music you hear is from Jerry David DeSicca. Thank you, Jerry. Thanks, Jerry.

[00:43:14] Greg Lambert: All right, Marlene, I’ll talk to you later.

[00:43:16] Marlene Gebauer: OK, bye bye.