On this episode of The Geek In Review, Marlene (@gebauerm) and Greg (@glambert) talk with long time friend and colleague Emily Rushing, Competitive Intelligence Director at Haynes and Boone in Dallas, Texas. In Emily’s decade at Haynes and Boone, she has implemented a stellar competitive intelligence process and has found a method of encouraging partners to share information and to build trust among throughout the firm. In addition to traditional CI tools, Emily has leveraged her firm’s CRM tool in ways that would make most of us in other firms envious.

Once again, Marlene and Greg get to record this week’s podcast together while Marlene is visiting Texas. Greg also “triple-dog dared” Marlene to reach out to one of their podcasting heroes, “Make Me Smart’sMolly Wood while Marlene was in Austin.

With ILTACon wrapping up this week, they also cover a couple of items they saw on social media about law firm websites, as well as teaching law firm management skills to law students.

Remember, if you like what you hear on The Geek In Review, go over to iTunes, or Google Play, or wherever you listen to your podcasts and subscribe, rate, and comment so that others can find the podcast.


Emily Rushing 0:00
It sounds so professional and Marlene does such a brilliant job,

marlene gebauer 0:05
I do.

Welcome to The Geek in Review, the podcast designed to cover the legal information profession with a slant toward technology and management. I’m Marlene Gebauer.

Greg Lambert 0:27
And I’m Greg Lambert. So Marlene, kind of put you up to something while you were in Austin, Texas, this what you did. So for the listeners of The Geek in Review, who may also listen to another podcast called Make me smart. You may notice that we love the way that Kira is doll and Molly would interact on their podcast. So Marlene, and I pay tribute to the style of podcast we try. Yeah, we do our best here on The Geek in Review, to kind of look like make me smart. So as Marlene pointed out to me this week, I’m kind of a big fanboy of both Kai and Molly. When I listened to this week’s episode of Make me smart, and Kai mentioned that Molly was off this week attending a conference in Austin. And I suddenly realized that my own co host Marlene was also in Austin light bulb. I kind of started scheming a way that I could see if I could get Marlene and Molly to meet up while they were there. I did would any adult would do in that situation and I tripled dog dared Marlene triple to send out a tweet to Molly and have her meet her at this event that you are going to that night. I know it’s a very mature

marlene gebauer 1:37
and an equally matured Nerd Girl Fashion. I accepted the challenge at invited Molly to come out and hear a blues band in East Austin. But before we get to that, some funny background. So when Greg texted me, I said, Oh, yeah, there’s a Public Radio Conference at the Hyatt. Now I had been booked at the Hyatt but unfortunately I booked for the wrong day, which is something I do fairly regularly

Greg Lambert 1:59
for dates was a

marlene gebauer 2:03
challenge challenge. Online Forms to sign I had to go to another hotel. So I was bummed that I missed the opportunity to meet Molly and my other public radio faves in the lobby. So Okay, back to the invite. So Molly didn’t come out. But she did respond. And she apologized that she couldn’t make it. I still count that as a win. And yes, Greg, I am never going to stop talking about it to you. Good.

Greg Lambert 2:26
Yeah. So I was glad that, you know, I was pretty excited when she replied, it’s like, Oh, my God started texting. Alright, so ilta wrapped up this week in DC I did not attend. But I did monitor a lot of the Twitter and other social media feeds that talked about the sessions. For those of you that may not know ilta is the international legal technology associations. That’s where all the it km and other technical folks in law firms go to hang out for a week in one of the Gaylord facilities. The sounds sounds like there was a lot going on, and some really good topics being discussed. And I really want to thank Ron Friedman for live blogging a particular session on experience collection. Thank you, Ron and law firms, because dude, I owe you a top shelf drink, because I’m working on a project that just covers that. And you basically did the work for me. So you know, thanks. I do want to talk about one thing that I saw on Twitter this week. And I felt like it was kind of a jumping the shark kind of moment. And I want to be careful because this is a very minor issue. So I don’t want to make a bigger deal of it. It is but it kind of got underneath my skin because it goes straight to the heart of the very concept that we criticize our lawyers for doing. And that is not understanding or talking to your clients to determine what’s important to them. The tweet went something along the lines of one speaker was paraphrasing something that was said a few years ago by another speaker Elta. And it was the idea of well, look, time has gone and we have done nothing about this. This is how horrible we are as an industry. And it was something along the lines of if an airline website were like a law firms website, you’d be able to see pictures of airplanes, but you wouldn’t be able to purchase tickets or go anywhere. And people were like, Yeah, lawfirm websites suck. Clients can’t

marlene gebauer 4:20
get stimulation of her law or websites, right. So

Greg Lambert 4:23
clients can’t get the services they want from our websites. Again, I’m being a little overdramatic here. But you know, at the time, that’s how it was seeing it in my mind.

marlene gebauer 4:35
You were in a bad mood, I think

Greg Lambert 4:37
was I’m like, you know, Mr. downer this week. So my initial reaction was this and I think I actually retweeted it. I know you did. What services are you going to buy from your law firm to their website, and I’ll even widen the scope here a bit. What professional services industry has products that you can purchase via their website, and I’m sure there’s something out there. uh you know, obviously somebody will tell us it please do at scape our M. Twitter. But I really think that legal advice and counsel isn’t something that you just simply point, click enter a credit card number and get some kind of transaction out of the deal. You might get that in like a solo or small firm where there are more opportunities for things like scheduling appointments or submitting initial information for personal legal needs. But for the people attending ilta, this, they’re not solo small, firm people, again, don’t want to focus on this was not a specific thing at the detriment of the other great stuff that was going on in Delta and with law firms. But this feels like one of those, it feels really good to say it statements, which can backfire on us if we’re not careful. Well,

marlene gebauer 5:50
Greg, it wouldn’t be our podcast if you didn’t stir up some controversy,

Greg Lambert 5:53
right, I got my sticker monster.

marlene gebauer 5:57
And that same theme, I saw an article on LinkedIn the other day called you’re a lawyer, but can you run a law firm, it highlighted several law schools that are providing various business of law classes for their law students, which I think is a good thing. However, you had a very interesting insight when we discuss this

Greg Lambert 6:13
Oh, man. Again, let me pull my stick out and start stirring. Alright, here

marlene gebauer 6:18
we go. You noted that all the schools mentioned were tier two and three law schools? And were they trying to find a way to differentiate themselves in the market? And then you question whether this is really a factor in hiring, which I thought was a great insight, which really surprised me, actually.

Greg Lambert 6:35
Hey, everyone, so while even a broken clock is right, twice a

marlene gebauer 6:39
day, right? No, seriously, it’s a very good insight. Because I you know, I wonder myself, you know, in terms of law, firm recruiting, you know, particularly in big law, I mean, are they really, you know, looking to some of these organizations, for their hiring, I think firms should be looking at students with this background, because we will be hiring them for new sorts of legal support roles, I think, you know, firms would be wise to keep this in mind, because it opens a broader opportunity for up and coming professionals who may not make partnership track yet will be able to significantly contribute to income stream for Legal Operations organizations. Greg, I want you to note, I didn’t just limit that to law firms

Greg Lambert 7:17
as you shouldn’t. And I don’t think that there’s anything wrong with tier two and tier three schools course not enough of themselves. Not everyone can be a tier one school, the issue I have is whether or not this is a real differentiator, and they’re not cheap. These schools cost almost as much as your tier one. Well, in fact, they’re actually more expensive than some of the public tier one schools. So it’s just I appreciate the idea of thinking of different ways to enrich a student’s educational experience. I just don’t know that whether or not this is a real differentiator, or if it’s a public relations type differentiator I I don’t know of law firms out there that are specifically looking for this and hiring associates. Now, where they might be looking forward is a legal ops people. So the people that are looking for alternative legal careers, maybe that’s that’s it. So

marlene gebauer 8:15
I mean, you know, if it’s PR, I mean, I hope and in that sense, it’s working, because again, you know, not everybody is able to go for various reasons to tier one schools. And this may give them greater opportunity to work in an environment that maybe they wouldn’t have the opportunity to do so. And I’m

Greg Lambert 8:33
all for that as long as everyone is on the same page. That’s what our goals are right.

marlene gebauer 8:55
Now. Today’s guest is a longtime friend for both of us, and she even worked for Greg when she started her career. Emily rushing is the director of competitive intelligence at Haynes and Boone in Dallas, Texas. But I think that title really doesn’t do justice to your overall impact on on what you’ve done over there in the last few years. Can you tell us about it?

Emily Rushing 9:30
Thank you, Marlene. Thank you both for the opportunity to be here. longtime listener and fan of this podcast. Honored Monday night in two months. Yeah, email and beg to be invited. So this is a big win for me. Thank you. And that’s exactly right. Marlene. Yeah, competitive intelligence is one of those phrases, one of those job titles. I refer to our practice just like lawyers, you know, are you our CI or competitive intelligence practice. But what does that mean here at Haynes and Boone? I started my career with Greg King and Spalding. I’ve been in Haynes and Boone for 10 years, I was asked to join in 2008 to create

marlene gebauer 10:11
dragons like making a face. Oh my god, it’s been 10 years

Emily Rushing 10:15
now, as I remember, babysitting. Greg’s kids, when they were a little bitty, they’d sit under my desk and collate cases and staple staple, they put the staplers Yeah, so they’re all edge of the third.

Greg Lambert 10:30
World, okay, as dad.

Emily Rushing 10:33
So yeah, 2008, I was asked by our then the chair of the Business Development Committee, and then cmo and then managing partner was asked to come in and create a competitive intelligence practice function here at the firm, then within business development, which we group business development and marketing. At that time, our firm had eight offices, I want to say, historically, Texas centric, so the vision 2008 was how the firm at that point was two years into executing on a 15 year strategy, our 2020 plan, the firm needed to grow and the firm was building a business development function, like many firms, and this is right at the recession, really right in the middle of the game to do that. Yeah, yeah. And like so many firms, the idea of having a CFO was very new, the idea of having any kind of official business development or sales support strategic roles were it was still new, but was still really unusual. So that

marlene gebauer 11:24
must have been challenging it mean, because again, no one really knew what the the path was to. Right. Well,

Greg Lambert 11:29
I can tell you right now, the most stunning part of that was that it was a 15 year plan, because most firms barely plan past this fiscal year. That’s

marlene gebauer 11:38
true. That’s true. What have you been doing recently,

Emily Rushing 11:41
that was the role that was created, I was hired in, it was just me for a long time, number of years, it was just one CI professional, not in the library, not in a knowledge management function embedded within business development, that never really felt right. But it worked really well as a high volume, very engaged CI services practice. And, you know, I’m glad to say we got to work on and support a lot of the execution of this 2020 plan, everything from opening new offices building out new practice groups, navigating that difficult economic period. So that was that was really awesome. And at that time, because it was BD and marketing, I had the CRM function that what we call competitive intelligence, then was research, information services, market segmentation, I’ve also always had CRM. So there’s always been that kind of database data, data analytics DB admin function, very more it oriented.

marlene gebauer 12:31
But but very useful for this for this space, absolutely critical

Emily Rushing 12:35
reor to what we do, how to who our clients, how do we know them? What our interactions with them? It is absolutely core? I almost cannot imagine CI functions that don’t work that closely with CRM. I know that’s common. A lot of firms are not that couple, but I can’t imagine my practice without CRM being a core everything from taxonomy and metadata design, you know, how do we label and classifier industries? How do we label and classify our practice areas, our clients and their industries, those are challenges that I think librarians are perfectly suited to address that a database administrator or a marketing professional. While they’re important in a lot of other areas. Nobody is better at metadata and taxonomy than a librarian. I love that interaction. I think that’s really critical to the success of CI here, and CI. So because we’ve got this mixed bag, right, I’m a librarian. I’ve always identified as a librarian, we’ve got CRM, we’ve got BD research support, we’ve got what I call library classic, you know, just straight up collection, management, collection, development, delivering, you know, reference and Research Services, classic librarianship, we’ve always defined, I’ve always defined competitive intelligence very broadly. So I’ve always said is any information that’s actionable, that helps Haynes and Boone and our clients more effectively compete?

Greg Lambert 13:47
Let me just stop for just a second and ask. So CRM is the thing that we know we need, but it is the thing that we hate to use. So how do you encourage your attorneys to use the CRM and What benefit do they get as a result of their using the CRM?

Emily Rushing 14:06
It’s a great question. And again, yeah, most firms have that function embedded in either there’s a DB admin or server admin role in it. And then it’s a marketing and it’s often a lower level team rolling up to an operations manager or something similar, but it has this tremendous potential to be very strategic and navigating those challenges. You know, the answer to that needs to be set at the very highest levels within the firm has everything to do with culture. So the answer to how you do that is how leadership at your organization promotes incentivizes all of our professionals to share their information. Here’s a boom benefits from our compensation structure. We are not eat what you kill, you are not incentivized. No one is incentivized here to hide their contacts to not share or display information about their clients. We have a CI service so we’re embedding news feeds into the CRM, we’re developing analytics surround millions of rows of activities. So we really closely connect results. And you know, we’re helping you lawyers make money. You know, we attach CRM very closely to how you go and make money and how you serve your client. We also have been really prosaic and really tactical, you don’t get reimbursed for VDI activities, which are common.

Greg Lambert 15:20
There’s the piece I was looking for, where was the stick, I was just gonna ask.

Emily Rushing 15:26
That’s the stick. If you want your $27 back for your sandwich, you got to put it into the system, the ITPs, we are using this phrase user adoption. I think we all whether you’re in a library role or a partner leadership, role, user adoption, meaning change management, right? I’ve heard

marlene gebauer 15:42
that term a few times.

Emily Rushing 15:45
Right? We were all struggling with it. So I think that’s the other piece of your question. Greg is, you know, how do we, how do we put it in the hands of the users and like all the systems and data and brilliant library in the world, just lead balloon, right? Unless your personnel aren’t in with that CRM product in front of them? But how do you get that so we actually our CRM function, where the escalation point, again, prosaic where the escalation point to the help desk, and it’s very high touch, so a secretary says something, something’s not working my you know, my little plugin, and my Outlook didn’t click properly, it doesn’t go into general software support comes to the database owners, and that’s a phone call or walk over to the desk, it’s a lot of work and time. But rather than treat it like Word or Microsoft, we have 1100 users are in this system all day, every day. And it’s their data, and it’s them interacting with the software. And we spent a lot of hands on time with our Administrative Professionals, all of our lawyers, hundreds of users saying, You guys have to be competent in this, you got to spend your time working with your data, this is how you do it, we need to hear back from you. And we’ve really outgrown the products we’re using now to

Greg Lambert 16:51
Well, one of the things that I’m hearing is that this is more about process management than it is about software management. And so you see the CRM more as a process and you see it as the software that is being used. And I’ll

marlene gebauer 17:06
add on to that, that that you’re basically part of this process is that you’re making the end user comfortable with using the data as opposed to you know, having you know, a professional handle it for them that basically you’re putting it in their hands and helping them be efficient in using it. Very curious about the challenges there, since we always hear how it’s difficult to get people to learn things, particularly if it’s if it’s not something where they’re incentivized by money or billing or what

Emily Rushing 17:35
Absolutely. Oh, absolutely. And you know, the and you touched on it, the downsides, right? It’s crowdsource data. And so the challenge is, from a data stewardship standpoint, right? As we start to leverage analytics, and we’re pointing Tableau or pointing large scale analytics tools at these millions of rows, we’re uncovering lots of issues with how data is entered, how it’s been validated consistency standards,

marlene gebauer 17:58
can you give me just an example? Or is that a top secret?

Emily Rushing 18:01
Yeah, there’s, there’s like really prosaic example, if I know you guys have all dealt with this too. Historically, law firm billing systems have been treated like an ERP, but they’re not what they’re not good at, or designed for or purpose built at all is to capture attributes that describe companies accurately besides where to mail the invoice that’s not and it should not be this system of authority. So I

Greg Lambert 18:23
guess this the $64,000 question, is the fix a manual fix? Is it an automated fix? Is it something that we can throw AI tools at? Please say, please say yes,

Emily Rushing 18:35
it has to be you can’t do this by hand, you can’t throw bodies at this. I mean, this scale, I

Greg Lambert 18:40
will tell you that the very first thing that I hear and I’ve heard for 20 years is what we just want and give it to the secretary to clean up. Yep, to hire data stewards to do it, which is very

marlene gebauer 18:53
expensive, which is ungodly,

Emily Rushing 18:55
expensive. And also you’re just getting a different flavor of bad data. Well, yeah.

Greg Lambert 18:59
And you’re you’re just pushing, kicking that can down the road. Unless

marlene gebauer 19:03
there’s a process involved, that everyone follows. Everyone will have their own interpretation.

Emily Rushing 19:07
Yeah, you have to use automation. I think I think what’s driving it, I think the reason we’re making any progress is the opportunity, you know, to make money and to improve client service. As long as it’s coupled with those goals, you can get the money, you can get the resources, you can get commitments to throw some AI at it, build something to you know, take a leap and test these new ideas. Can this help us but it has to be so closely connected? Can this help us make more money? Can this solve our clients problems?

Greg Lambert 19:35
I love that she says Can it make more money rather than does it produce ROI? Am I gonna fatten my wallet?

Emily Rushing 19:42
I can dress it up if we want. That’s the truth, right? Fancy

Greg Lambert 19:47
I already had to look up I literally had to look up what prosaic meant.

marlene gebauer 19:53
Have you found that I mean, with a 15 year plan, I’m assuming that unanticipated things do happen and that the firm Just as they go along.

Emily Rushing 20:01
Yeah, and I think we were over. I mean, I even heard our Managing Partner this morning, say, you know, we don’t think we could do 15 years again, like that’s, that was a stretch. It was aspirational. It didn’t, it’s not 100% it just did not work out in every single aspect. You know, a lot of it did, though. And it’s really been marching orders, I sit down to write my budget, I sit down to plan for hiring plan for projects and initiatives within my group. I start with that, I open that first and like, Okay, where are we are at age 11? Okay, now we know what we’re doing this year,

marlene gebauer 20:29
I had a question about like information sharing, both from a perspective of some of the AI tools that we may be using, which you know, may be cloud based, as well as your model where you may have, you know, you’re training people to sort of use this and and disseminate it. I mean, when I think about, you know, banking clients that are very particular about, like, what what is shared, I think about all the GDPR issues now that we’re facing. So what are you doing? And what are you thinking about in those terms?

Emily Rushing 21:00
Two points, I think about the information governance and compliance and security issues. For one, I think there needs to be a lot of education with lawyers and our clients around what what standards we’ve been holding ourselves to, honestly, and unrealistic expectations of exactly how secure things have been, when you’re talking about cloud, right? How secure is it really on a server in a basement in an area that floods Houston? Right? I

Greg Lambert 21:25
don’t know what you’re talking about.

Emily Rushing 21:26
How safe was your data? already? I see a lot of education.

marlene gebauer 21:30
I’m doing it too. I mean, that was the other boy.

Emily Rushing 21:33
So you started with banks, which I think is a great example. You know, we were talking about Salesforce, and you know, as you’re on AWS and you know, different hosted services, and the idea of saying, oh, you know, can law firms ever really use something like Salesforce. And when you whip out the deck and show actually like, here’s your list of your clients, these are all already on that particular cloud or product. Again, it’s an education, it just blows people’s minds. Oh, my gosh, really, I think that education part of it and our operations, infrastructure, security professionals, our own internal white hat need to be involved in that discussion. The other thing I think is the point clients are doing it already. If you want analytics, if you want to use your data, you are talking about cloud, it’s the only way to do it. There is no on prem way to process to manage to deal with millions and millions of rows and huge, huge, huge datasets and databases. It’s really impractical to envision doing that in a local network environment. And again, that’s education for lawyers. Well, you can’t have both. It’s either locked down and not on cloud or you don’t it’s a business decision. It’s a business decision. And it’s a hard one because it’s technical. And I don’t blame anybody for being anti semitic.

marlene gebauer 22:43
It’s a whole other podcast. Yes, hey. So I wanted to circle back to some things you were talking about earlier. But also, some things you touched on just in this this, this last response, you’re talking about how your group is very client focused, and everything is very about the client. And you were also talking about cases of security and even your sort of the first front for the helpdesk how different departments kind of have to work together. What are the challenges there? Because, you know, I think in talking to other people, it’s generally the experience that sometimes it’s difficult for departments to collaborate and kind of understand who’s doing what and who should be doing what and, you know, make it flow and in a smooth sort of way, what are some of the challenges you see there?

Emily Rushing 23:31
It is tremendously challenging, isn’t it? And, and I’ll be kind of optimistic. And say I, you know, I think and certainly feel this way about my colleagues here and also in other firms and other librarians that other firms when we all talk having the same problems? Yeah, it comes from a good place, right? So the accounting group is not trying to screw me up with the name of the client, nobody meant that the intention in every respect was to do the right thing for the firm to do exactly what the client asked exactly how they wanted that invoice prepared and delivered as efficiently as possible. So that’s coming from the best possible intentions, but But starting that dialogue in a way that allows everyone to say, look, we are in this together, we are all trying to do the right thing. The number one priority is always the client is always the integrity of the service we provide to the client period. Our clients don’t just have legal problems, they have business problems with a legal aspect in order to meet our client’s needs and make money Hello, everyone wants to make some money. We got to do this and we can start with let’s all just get past that first part. Everybody’s fine. Everybody’s pretty we’re all doing a good job. Nobody’s mad at let’s start and move that passion. But that takes tact and that takes leadership and that takes people with a little removed. Nobody, no one stakeholder, somebody outside of that immediate stakeholder to say, you know, if we take a deep breath, we’re gonna say some complicated things. You might have a feeling and I’d have a reaction. Stick with us through that to the answers because you guys are the best positioned to solve this problem. But we got to get past the challenges and the reactions.

Greg Lambert 25:10
So what you’re saying is, we’re all on the same team. We’re all in the same boat. We’re all rowing in the right direction. And we have to trust each other to get to the goal. sounds it sounds like you can apply that to almost anything. That’s true. That’s true. It is true. Yeah. All right. Well, Emily, I think we’ve held you about as long as we need to. Thank you very much for taking the time to talk with us. It’s been very entertaining. Yes. Thank

marlene gebauer 25:34
you, Emily. This has been great. Fun. Thank you guys. When

Emily Rushing 25:40
you guys are my favorite congrats on the awesome podcast.

Greg Lambert 25:43
All right. Well, this has been Emily rushing, who’s the director of competitive intelligence at Haynes and Boone, thank you very much for joining us. Thank you guys. Thanks, Emily. Talk soon, bye.

marlene gebauer 26:07
Well, I think that was a great time we spent with with Emily, it’s, it’s fantastic to hear some of the stuff that she’s doing and what she’s been able to accomplish. Yes,

Greg Lambert 26:16
I have taught her well. She is learn. Just kidding. Now Emily is great. That’s even though she works at a firm that we directly compete with, is still is one of those things where I just admire what she’s done there. And how far she’s she’s come in, in the decade that she’s been working there. So kudos to Emily, and thanks for talking with us.

marlene gebauer 26:45
I really liked what Emily had to say. I mean, she offered some some really thoughtful insights about the challenges internally that she and you know, other members of you know, her department might be experiencing in terms of, you know, moving in this direction towards client customer satisfaction. You know, it’s it’s a hard thing to get a very large organization with different people and different groups, you know, with different priorities to kind of move all in the same direction together. So, you know, kudos to her.

Greg Lambert 27:14
Absolutely, absolutely. So, guess what, Marlene? What, Greg, we are entering our third month of podcasting.

marlene gebauer 27:22
That’s because I like that’s just crazy.

Greg Lambert 27:25
And we have an internal joke that we say, you know, we knew this was gonna be fun, but we didn’t know it was gonna be this much fun. So are you still having fun?

marlene gebauer 27:33
I am still having so much fun doing this. And Marlene, it’s

Greg Lambert 27:37
been great having you here in Texas and being able to do these podcasts recording side by side. It’s, it’s been fun. I’m going to be traveling most of next week. So this may be our last one that we get out. While we’re all in the same room. But hopefully we can find ways of reducing these stupid technical difficulties we had that seem to play.

marlene gebauer 27:55
Well, you know, now that you got your new microphone, so I gotta tell everybody, you know, on the last podcast, Greg was talking about my microphone and microphone envy. It is totally microphone envy. So he got one now so now he has one that looks just like mine. So I’m sure all the technical problems will be fine. Now go away.

Greg Lambert 28:16
Mine’s blue.

marlene gebauer 28:17
That’s true. Yours is blue totally in his silver

Greg Lambert 28:19
is totally different. Yes. All right. Well, if you like what you hear, please make sure that you subscribe to the podcast on iTunes or whatever platform you’re listening. Take a couple of minutes to rate The Geek in Review and leave a comment so that others can find us. If you have questions or comments, especially if you have bad comments. send those to Marlene at gave our M if you have nice comments to make, you know send those to me at G Lambert Jordan Lambert’s

marlene gebauer 28:45
Special thanks to Emily rushing for talking with us today. And thanks to Kevin MacLeod for his original music. Yes, thank you. Bye bye

Transcribed by https://otter.ai