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This week on The Geek in Review, we sit down with Jennifer McIver, Legal Ops and Industry Insights at Wolters Kluwer ELM Solutions. We open with Jennifer’s career detour from aspiring forensic pathologist to practicing attorney to legal tech and legal ops leader, sparked by a classic moment of lawyer frustration, a slammed office door, and a Google search for “what else can I do with my law degree.” From implementing Legal Tracker at scale, to customer success with major clients, to product and strategy work, her path lands in a role built for pattern spotting, benchmarking, and translating what legal teams are dealing with into actionable insights.

Marlene pulls the thread on what the sharpest legal ops teams are doing with their data right now. Jennifer’s answer is refreshingly practical. Visibility wins. Dashboards tied to business strategy and KPIs beat “everything everywhere all at once” reporting. She talks through why the shift to tools like Power BI matters, and why comfort with seeing the numbers is as important as the numbers themselves. You cannot become a strategic partner if the data stays trapped inside the tool, or inside the legal ops team, or inside someone’s head.

Then we get into the messy part, which is data quality and data discipline. Jennifer points out the trap legal teams fall into when they demand 87 fields on intake forms and then wonder why nobody enters anything, or why every category becomes “Other,” also known as the graveyard of analytics. Her suggestion is simple. Pick the handful of fields that tell a strong story, clean them up, and get serious about where the data lives. She also stresses the role of external benchmarks, since internal trends mean little without context from market data.

Greg asks the question on everyone’s bingo card, what is real in AI today versus what still smells like conference-stage smoke. Jennifer lands on something concrete, agentic workflows for the kind of repeatable work legal ops teams do every week. She shares how she uses an agent to turn event notes into usable internal takeaways, with human review still in the loop, and frames the near-term benefit as time back and faster cycles. She also calls out what slows adoption down inside many companies, internal security and privacy reviews, plus AI committees that sometimes lag behind the teams trying to move work forward.

Marlene shifts to pricing, panels, AFAs, and what frustrates GCs and legal ops leaders about panel performance. Jennifer describes two extremes, rigid rate programs with little conversation, and “RFP everything” process overload. Her best advice sits in the middle, talk early, staff smart, and match complexity to the right team, so cost and risk make sense. She also challenges the assumption that consolidation always produces value. Benchmarking data often shows you where you are overpaying for certain work types, even when volume discounts look good on paper.

We close with what makes a real partnership between corporate legal teams and firms, and Jennifer keeps returning to two themes, communication and transparency, with examples. When an AFA starts drifting, both sides raise their hands early, instead of waiting for invoice rejection drama. When a client invests in “law firm days” that include more than relationship partners, the firm learns the business context, the work improves, and outcomes improve. Jennifer’s crystal ball for 2026 is blunt and useful, data first, start the hard conversations now, and take a serious look at roles and skills inside legal ops, because the job is changing fast.

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Listen on mobile platforms:  ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Apple Podcasts⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ |  ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Spotify⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ | ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠YouTube⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

[Special Thanks to ⁠Legal Technology Hub⁠ for their sponsoring this episode.]

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Email: geekinreviewpodcast@gmail.com
Music: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Jerry David DeCicca⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Transcript:

Continue Reading Data First, Partner Better. Jennifer McIver on Legal Ops Benchmarks, AI Agents, and Pricing Reality Checks

In this episode of The Geek in Review, we sit down with Narrative founder John Tertan to talk about law firm pricing, messy data, and why substance matters more than shiny tools. We pick up from our first meeting at the Houston Legal Innovators event, where John had the pricing and KM crowd buzzing, and ask what he is hearing from those teams as they look toward 2026. John explains how Narrative focuses on “agentifying” business-of-law work, starting with pricing and analytics, so firms stop guessing and start grounding decisions in better data. The goal is simple, improve decisions for pricing teams, finance, marketing, and partners who want to win work that also makes financial sense.

John walks through the pain points that drive firms to seek out Narrative, from low realization and high write-offs to tedious non-billable work and a lack of trust in the data behind pitches and budgets. Many firms track key metrics in scattered spreadsheets, checked once in a while rather than used as a daily guide for strategy. Narrative steps into that gap by improving the accuracy of historical matter data, identifying the right reference matters for new proposals, and supporting alternative fee structures. John explains how this foundation supports better scoping, more confident pricing conversations, and far stronger alignment between firm goals and client expectations.

We also dive into John’s founder journey, which runs from Freshfields associate to innovation work, then through venture-backed tech in other sectors before returning to legal. That mix of big law, startup experience, and prior success with HeyGo shapes how he builds Narrative. John talks about serving “mature customers” who expect more than a slick interface, they expect real understanding of their business, their politics, and their constraints. Relationships sit at the center of his approach, not only with clients and prospects, but also with advisors, former firm leaders, and legal tech veterans who guide both product and go-to-market strategy.

The name “Narrative” is no accident, and John explains why time entry narratives sit at the heart of his product. Those lines of text describe what lawyers did, for whom, and why, yet they often sit underused in billing systems. Narrative improves and structures that data, then uses it to highlight scope, track what remains in or out of scope, and surface early warnings when matters drift away from the original plan. John talks through the life cycle, from selecting comparable matters, through modeling AFAs and scenarios, to monitoring work in progress and feeding lessons back into future pricing efforts. Along the way, better transparency supports stronger trust between partners and clients.

We close by asking John to look ahead. He shares his view on how firms will move toward more sophisticated pricing models and better measurement, while the billable hour continues to evolve rather than vanish overnight. Stronger baselines, cleaner matter histories, and better tracking create room for fee caps, success components, and other structures that clients want to sell internally. John also shares how he stays informed through alerts, networks, and a new chief of staff who helps turn those insights into resources for pricing and finance professionals. For listeners who want to learn more or follow Narrative’s work, John points them to narrativehq.com and invites outreach from anyone wrestling with data, pricing, or margin questions inside their own firm.

Listen on mobile platforms:  ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Apple Podcasts⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ |  ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Spotify⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ | ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠YouTube⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

[Special Thanks to ⁠Legal Technology Hub⁠ for their sponsoring this episode.]

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Email: geekinreviewpodcast@gmail.com
Music: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Jerry David DeCicca⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Transcript:

Continue Reading From Bad Data to Better Deals: John Tertan on Narrative, Pricing, and Law Firm Relationships