In this special “Love and Legal Tech” episode of The Geek in Review podcast, host Greg Lambert sits down with Alexis Hayman, Director of Business Development at Consilio, and Jeff Niemczura, Discovery Attorney at Google, to discuss their unique journey as a couple working in the legal technology industry.

Alexis and Jeff first met in Cleveland, Ohio, while Jeff was a graduate student and Alexis was an undergrad. Their paths diverged as they pursued different careers – Jeff initially considering a PhD in religion and Alexis exploring art history. However, life had other plans, and they both found themselves drawn to the legal profession. Jeff stumbled into law school and graduated into the Great Recession, which led him to become a discovery professional. Alexis, influenced by her father’s innovative approach to his law practice and title insurance company, as well as her mentor, civil rights attorney Jacqueline Green, decided to pursue a law degree at Temple University.

As the couple navigated their careers, they faced challenges and opportunities that brought them closer together in the legal technology space. When Jeff took a job in California, Alexis decided to “infiltrate” the industry, bringing her passion for improving efficiency and building better client relationships to her roles. Their shared experiences and different perspectives on innovation and technology lead to engaging discussions and occasional disagreements, but ultimately strengthen their bond.

Alexis and Jeff emphasize the importance of being well-resourced in their current roles, which allows them to tackle novel challenges and collaborate with talented colleagues. They find excitement in their work, whether it’s being at the forefront of client relationships or finding creative solutions to complex problems.

When asked about their advice for couples considering working in the same field or together, Alexis stresses the importance of being friends with your partner and being able to picture a respectful relationship even in the worst-case scenario (we made a music video about this part of the conversation!). Jeff echoes this sentiment, emphasizing the need for genuine curiosity about one another’s lives and the value of giving each other space when needed.

As Alexis and Jeff continue to navigate their love and legal tech journey, their story serves as an inspiration for couples seeking to balance their personal and professional lives in an ever-evolving industry.

Check out Jeff’s band, Glowing Burns on Spotify and other music streaming services.


Listen on mobile platforms:  ⁠⁠⁠Apple Podcasts⁠⁠⁠ |  ⁠⁠⁠Spotify⁠⁠⁠ | ⁠⁠YouTube⁠⁠

Contact Us: 

Twitter: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@gebauerm⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, or ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠@glambert
⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Threads: @glambertpod or @gebauerm66
Music: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Jerry David DeCicca⁠⁠⁠⁠


Greg Lambert 0:04
Welcome to The Geek in Review the podcast focused on innovative and creative ideas in the legal profession. I’m Greg Lambert and I am going solo this week. Marlene, has a day job that sometimes gets in the way of our recording. So I’m stepping in for her. But this week for our Love and Legal Tech feature, we have with us Alexis Hayman, who’s director of business development at Consilio. And, Jeff, make sure I get this right, Jeff, Jeff Niemczura, who is Discovery Attorney at Google. Jeff Did I did I come close to that? Niemczura?

Jeff Niemczura 0:42
Nailed it.

Greg Lambert 0:44
All right. Perfect. Is this is going to going to be getting off to a great start. So Alexis, and Jeff, welcome to The Geek in Review.

Alexis Hayman 0:50
Thank you.

Greg Lambert 0:51
So I wanted to Alexis, so I’ll start with you. Can you tell us a little bit more about what you do there at Consilio?

Alexis Hayman 1:00
Yeah, so I’m actually fairly new at Consilio. But my role is to develop new partnerships, relationships with both the law firm side and corporate in house practice, for concilium. Consilio is a global leader in people process and technology, legal services, roots are in ediscovery. But we also have an incredibly robust advisory and flex talent placement. So it’s really great role to get to know the current state legal practice and find something you’ll be able to offer those solutions that are really impactful, sort of a problem for solutions following model, which is great. And so I’m just out here, well, I’m out there in the Bay Area. Right now, just opening those doors and getting to know the industry. Right? They’re

Greg Lambert 1:52
I was gonna say you’re so new, have you even seen your offices yet?

Alexis Hayman 1:55
Yeah. My team is amazing. They’ve been so generous to make time to spend with me. So it’s been very, very cool.

Greg Lambert 2:05
Terrific. Jeff, tell us a little bit about what you do there at Google.

Jeff Niemczura 2:11
Sure. I’m a discovery attorney. I advise all things discovery as part of a large team of in house attorneys. I primarily focus these days on regulatory litigation and investigations. But I’ve had the opportunity to work with all sorts of general litigation, patent employment, all sorts of things and to apply technology and workflows and to try and get sound advice to our outside counsel and a very busy docket.

Greg Lambert 2:36
Well, before we get into your story, for those that are watching the video here, tell us where you are. Because I see palm trees, I see mountains, I see desert.

Alexis Hayman 2:46
So yeah, we’re a long way from the Bay Area where we’re usually rooted, but we’re out in greater San Bernardino County in a little area village. Like area, unincorporated area. No, no. You informally as Wonder Valley. Definitely recommend it for anyone who’s visiting out the Joshua Tree area. We put down some roots here during COVID. And it’s become we have a little cabin out here. And we’re doing our spring break with our kids and, and one of our kids brands. It’s it’s just some other friends are coming to visit. This is our like, this was my dream to come to the desert. Awesome.

Greg Lambert 3:27
Well, it looks terrific. And this is the perfect time of the year to to be out there before it gets too hot.

Alexis Hayman 3:33

Greg Lambert 3:42
Get the proper shade. Yeah, yeah, my my wife is the same way she has taught me she uses an umbrella as a sunscreen. And she’s taught me to walk in her shadow. That way, you know, she doesn’t. She makes sure that she gets the sun blocked off her. So, tell me a little bit Jeff. How did two of you meet?

Jeff Niemczura 4:02
We met in the old fashioned way, in person

Greg Lambert 4:06
No online dating?

Jeff Niemczura 4:08
We’ve known each other long enough that that wasn’t really in the cards.

Alexis Hayman 4:12
When I met you. I was like, Oh, you have internet at your house?

Jeff Niemczura 4:17
I was I was a graduate student and she was an undergrad. And we met at a stress to include that I don’t think it was officially either a bar or a restaurant. It was more like the ground floor of an apartment building that served drinks. It’s a very, very college town sort of thing

Alexis Hayman 4:36
in Cleveland, Ohio,

Jeff Niemczura 4:37
in Cleveland, Ohio, near the campus of Case Western Reserve University. And I was immediately fascinated by her. It took a little bit longer on her side of the equation. So we were friends for quite a long time and and got real close as people before you know long before law

Alexis Hayman 4:56
school or anything like that. I thought I was going to You go to school for art history for art restoration, and didn’t really have any qualifications to do that. But it looked really great to go. And there you were going to go be a PhD in religion. And

Jeff Niemczura 5:12
neither of those things happened.

Alexis Hayman 5:14
Because yeah, my father’s

Greg Lambert 5:16
life gets in the way.

Alexis Hayman 5:18
Well, Ed Hayman got in the way, my dad, this is you’ll probably hear us refer to him quite a bit. But he, the late Edward Hayman was an enormous influence on both of us, sort of the patron saint of our early day.

Greg Lambert 5:35
So well, Marlene is gonna gonna regret not being on this, because Case Western is where she went to law school.

Alexis Hayman 5:41
Oh, wow. That’s Jeff went to law school.

Greg Lambert 5:44
And so you were probably there at different times together. So. And I know, tell us a little bit about, you know, how this progressed, and then how you got away from doctrine in religious studies and art degree to where you are now, how did you kind of wind your way into the, we’ll call it the legal tech business?

Jeff Niemczura 6:06
For me? Yeah, as Alexis mentioned, I was finishing up my master’s degree, trying to get ready for these doctoral programs, had not actually done a survey of the job market and the actual opportunities out there, and started having practical conversations right around that time, and realized, now this, I don’t actually want this enough. And I’m having a really hard time learning ancient Greek. So I sort of just stumbled into law school the way I think a lot of focused people who struggle with STEM do. And so it wasn’t a person who who landed in, in law school with a particular dream or goal, it was a practical choice, which in retrospect, was a really good way to approach that, particularly because I graduated into the Great Recession, where we had to be really creative with the job market. So I have no regrets whatsoever. And I don’t know how far you want to go on the story at the time. But as I said, I graduated into a really difficult job market. And that really was the impetus for how I became a discovery professional. Basically, I followed the, you know, whatever you are be a good one mantra and did my very best and created a career out of that. And we can dig in more on that. But I’ll let Alexis answer her side of the question.

Greg Lambert 7:23
Yeah. Alexis said, How did you wind your way into law?

Alexis Hayman 7:26
Yeah. So I had always worked in my dad’s practice and in his businesses, plural. He owned a owned, operated a fairly large title insurance company in Cleveland, Ohio, Rockwell Title. And I was maybe five or six when he started it, where I was pushing in the old Apple computers, because his idea was, hey, we’re going to bring computers into this, we’re going to, we don’t have to do this. We don’t have to be miserable. That was sort of his, his mantra was you don’t have to be miserable. And he’d actually brought these solutions to his non current employer, which was one of the big national companies. And this knew this doesn’t make any sense. And he was like, I’ll just do it by myself. I’ll just do it on my own. And he was he was not someone who could really work for other people. And he could barely work with other people. But he could work. So yeah, I had just kind of been very aligned with his vision for having autonomy over how I spent my days. And so as a as I was progressing through school, and I met Jeff and I started to sort of mature into into a vision for my adult life. I actually had the wonderful fortune to be now a now incredibly prominent civil rights attorney Jacqueline Green at it was now a partner at Freeman Gilbert. But we were just old classmates together. And she was an enormous influence as far as you know. Having me keep some mindset towards contributing to the world around me. And so I hope that she hears this because she’s just an incredibly balancing influence in my life. And as I was graduating, you know, I’m thinking, Okay, I want to have some autonomy, I want to have some kind of insight about how the world operates. I want to be able to have impact. And, you know, between Jacqueline and my dad saying, you know, you get this JD, you don’t have to, you know, does your Do you want to do the lawyer thing, but if you get this, you’re… I was 23. It’s three years of your life, just get through it. And so I went to Temple University, which is a big public interest School, which is incredibly motivating to me. And I, I understand that legal tech often is very far afield, especially at the moment from a lot of the public interest work. But, you know, there’s, there’s a lot, there’s a lot of opportunity, there’s a lot of opportunity. And it was really, it became prominent in my life, it was always the idea that you don’t have to be miserable while you’re working you there are tools that can make life better? And how can you make the world better around you? Were the two kind of guiding principles for me. And how did I get in? Specifically, oh, my now like, firmly?

Greg Lambert 10:03
How did you not go and take over your dad’s practice? And that’s where you are now?

Alexis Hayman 10:10
So I did do a lot of I did some community building, I worked for some prominent campaigns, including the Obama 2012 campaign, with that same kind of mindset of how can I use my skills that I’ve learned in law school and my passion for the world around me. And even in the Obama campaign, they had started to use some some really cool database technologies that were directed to the end user. So things powered by PeopleSoft. Which if you’re like, really old school, tech, kind of remember. And I did take a lot of my dad’s work. I worked on a lot of with a lot of his clients on their legal and non legal issues. But my father passed away, and I shipped and I had a baby right after we had a baby, I guess. Right after. And I did say, Okay, well, it’s time to It’s time. Ed’s gone, it’s time to do my own thing. I started taking cases on my own. I actually didn’t even bother to get licensed in Ohio until then. And I immediately was hit with huge discovery. Just, you know, I started taking some plaintiff side employment cases, and asking for all this discovery, because I was told by my managing attorney, he has this like, we’re going to really push them. But then I didn’t know how to review my, what was handed Well, I didn’t know what to do with what I asked for. And luckily, I had Jeff, who kind of explained, this is how we review documents here. And gave me a recommendation to look at Everlaw, which was so guided to the end user, and so developed, so well crafted for,

Jeff Niemczura 11:44
which was very new at that time, you know, those that’s really disruptor SAS companies were it was really exciting at that time. Because, I mean, we were talking about this earlier, and the balance of using technology to actually make life easier, and to make more room for what really requires, you know, personal touches, thoughtful workflows, interactions, you know, we’re always talking about what’s the state of the technology we use now? And how can how can it really add benefit to what needs to get done. So that was interesting. And then I’ll take ownership of this part. She’s just developing. She’s just developing doing this practice. And, and just as she’s getting running on it, I was offered a job in California, that was hard for us to turn down. So I’m sorry that I uprooted your practice.

Alexis Hayman 12:40
I’m really glad it’s good to be on the public record. So well, and many thanks to Karen Groedel. Groedel and Associates, who took this huge chance on me, gave me an opportunity to sit in a law firm for the first time. As an outdoor cat, You can’t imagine how challenging it was I would get up have to drive to an office every day. But Karen Groedel and Matt Grimsley were just doing they they were so such great mentors and so encouraging of my sense of, we can do things better, we can do things better. And would constantly let me know that, you know, the ways that I had improved our efficiency. Let me talk to our clients more, let me build better relations with our clients, which then let me do better discovery because I would find some things very quickly, talk to my client turn around, look for the next thing. And it was really, you know, that process building was really cool.

Jeff Niemczura 13:32
So fortunately, we had a template for making those sorts of decisions. Because we had been in Philadelphia, I was initially Barton in Pennsylvania. And so the way I really got into discovery work was I was living in Ohio with a Pennsylvania license, and my options were limited, and we had a baby. So that’s I ended up I started on with a review vendor at the time. And I went through this whole experience of learning this technology, learning these workflows, integrating myself with this sort of growing industry. And so then, several years later, after I had been through a couple of law firms, I took this job in California, thank you so much for making such a big change. We had a template for what what do you do when you’re in a new place, and you’re not licensed? And, to her immense credit, Alexis was like, Well, I’m going to infiltrate your industry Jeff. And, really has been on this really targeted and thoughtful trajectory to really understand the whole business of electronic discovery and all of its ancillary characters. And it’s had this really wonderful, you know, benefit of bringing us together in a professional way that we hadn’t experienced before. And, you know, we’re operating sort of in different, you know, areas of the same game. And it leads to, like, really nice, thoughtful conversations, understanding each other. We don’t have to bridge that gap that maybe other couples do who aren’t sharing that space. And it’s, for us, at least, it’s been a really a really positive thing that keeps us close.

Greg Lambert 15:10
And it sounds like the way that just from listening to the conversation here, is that you guys are identifying certain issues, using your lawyer hat to spot the issues when it comes to discovery. And then you’re applying your previous experience to say, Okay, here’s, here’s the issue, here’s some options that to work toward. Because a lot of times, especially now, you’re using it to to solve a problem. And now they’re people are coming up with these great solutions, and then going out and searching for the problem. So it sounds like the benefit that you’ve had is being able to kind of bounce ideas off of each other and saying, Hey, here’s the issue. I’m coming up with how have you looked at this before? Is that kind of?

Alexis Hayman 15:58
Absolutely. There’s, there’s no better example than I mean, a lot of what I work in is very bread and butter. And it’s and I don’t I mean, we full stop. We don’t really talk about our individual work life that much. But we talk about the industry a lot, because I know what I do, he knows that he does, but I want to think about the future. So I think the big place that we talk, we’ve been talking about AI a lot. And about how like right? The solution, for problem. Yeah, for problems that might not be there yet. And it’s a stepping stone. The use of AI requires some foundational understanding that I think is still very lacking, and also requires just a a buy into technology that’s still that we’re still developing. And so

Jeff Niemczura 16:52
Yeah, well, and it’s weird, because all the technology that I’ve used throughout all my years of practice has been oriented toward, you know, basically, cost centers, you know, let’s let’s use this technology to get this done as efficiently as possible. In the best of circumstances, particularly from the client side, let’s save money, let’s Let’s you and it’s pretty siloed right? You know, you’re it’s not a commercial tool that you’re also making money from unless, unless you’re selling it and then that’s your business. But with with the development of AI which is and can be so close to discovery workflows. With it also being this massive potential money maker. It really raises really difficult questions and issues about how we’re using it and how we’re oriented toward it. And how our use in say litigation compares with with its use On the business side, well,

Alexis Hayman 17:45
we talked about a lot is like the human element. So I spend a lot. So I, this is my first business development role before this, I was on the customer 60 called Customer Success. What do you do with the client? Once you once you’ve sort of had them buy in? How do you do change management? How do you train them? How do you keep that? Keep the client motivated to use technology? Usually, they’ve been doing something that worked okay. How do you get them to stick with this, this great solution? So I, I’m sort of coming in differently. I don’t come in. We talk about the trenches a lot. I don’t come in from this, like, I survived. Being up for 48 hours, I came in with a How can we do this better? How can we avoid getting in the trenches? And that that’s not just the tooling. It’s also how do you manage the people on the other end? How do you manage the end user? Like I said, I started kind of falling in love with this space through Everlaw’s innovation and in End User and User Experience. And so with AI, it’s like, you can’t it’s not just the tool, you have to have a thorough understanding. Well, you and I talked about that a lot. You have to know, understand the tool that you’re using and legal practice. Yeah.

Jeff Niemczura 18:49
Well, I mean, how do you that’s the new skill set is how do you write prompts, for Large Language Models, because garbage in garbage out?

Alexis Hayman 18:54
Well, before you write prompts, you have to know what you’re talking to.

Greg Lambert 18:58
There’s a whole umbrella of new new ways of kind of just even looking at at the issues anymore. So let me let me switch gears a little bit. Because, you know, we, we’ve sat around the campfire here and sing the Kumbaya, how great it is working in the same industry, but I’m sure there’s some challenges, as well. I know you guys work together a little bit in your dad’s law firm. And, and so how is it now that you’re in kind of the same, you know, big umbrella industry? What are some challenges that you kind of run into along the way?

Alexis Hayman 19:38
I think you just almost had a taste of it. Like, no, you have to think about the people like don’t do the scenes, dickering that happened, every, like we mentioned, Jeff was tracking this, basically a philosophy PhD. And I was like, I want to talk about like how art came in, like, what we should do with it. We, we can get into fights where we like leave the room from each other, because we have different ideas about how, where technology should go in the future. It’s all it’s very, it’s always like, kind of hypothetical stuff.

Jeff Niemczura 20:14
I think you just almost had a taste of it. Like, no, you have to think about the people like don’t do the scenes, dickering that happened, every, like we mentioned, Jeff was tracking this, basically a philosophy PhD. And I was like, I want to talk about like how art came in, like, what we should do with it. We, we can get into fights where we like leave the room from each other, because we have different ideas about how, where technology should go in the future. It’s all it’s very, it’s always like, kind of hypothetical stuff.

Alexis Hayman 20:57
Yeah, I think it just comes down to seeing it different. Yeah, because I think about innovation a lot. And you’re, very different your life, your work life is. And I talked about this at work a lot, that all of the work that comes out of all these technologies, and all these tools is ascribed to the attorney. It’s not, no one says, We can’t go to a judge and say, Oh, this discovery was incomplete because of Relativity failed in some way. You know, yeah, it’s attorneys work product

Greg Lambert 21:18
well, in the same way with AI. So if the AI is issue, if somebody does something wrong, it’s the attorneys issue.

Jeff Niemczura 21:25
It was on the pleadings.

Alexis Hayman 21:26
Yeah. Right. And I, you know, being on the tech side, I can be a little bit more bold and imaginative about where we can go and it can get frustrating, like, oh, I read this thing. And it looks really great. And I have this idea for this. What if, what if we use this tool in this way? And sometimes Jeff can be a wet blanket about it.

Greg Lambert 21:43
Yeah, I think we had a guest on a couple of weeks ago that said, the what was it the five worst things you can hear a client say is “wouldn’t it be cool if it” and then goes off into a thing? So yeah, it’s kind of I mean, it’s kind of nice that you can have these, you know, arguments and still at the end of the day, still Live your life. But, and I had someone on a separate podcast I did for the firm that recently said something about. And he’s a doctor, just saying that it was really important to have opposing views in the room. And it’s really hard to get those opposing views in the room because usually everyone’s so busy. That, you know, even if they’re very passionate about it, it’s very hard to get get that. So I think there’s a good opportunity there with the two of you having kind of two paths of how you approach problems of being able to bounce those off of each other, even if it means bouncing it from a different room. But it’s definitely a lot of benefit after after the blood pressure comes back down, I imagine.

Jeff Niemczura 22:52
Yeah. And honestly, if I make a fool in front of myself with her, it’s less likely I do it at work. So I’m grateful for that.

Greg Lambert 23:03
So what happens when you’re you guys go to a reception or something or you’re out? And people learn that the you’re a couple? Is it? I mean, is it pretty well known? What what’s kind of the reaction you get from people when you tell them?

Alexis Hayman 23:17
So we’re relatively new to the bay? I think it’s very, we were Ohio was different. Cleveland is different. It’s a small town, like and I’ve been there my whole life. And we knew everybody and nobody cared what we did. And nobody cared. We were doing anything all that interesting to to our local music scene. So nobody wanted the detail. But now it’s it seems like a lot more about social life happens at Bar Association. Like mixers itself?

Jeff Niemczura 23:43
Yeah, I feel like most people most people have. Oh, that’s cool. Yeah, sort of reaction to it. I think we’ve done a good job of filtering out naysayers from our spheres.

Alexis Hayman 23:54
Yeah, Jeff only wants yes men in the room now. Now. No, I think people think it’s just kind of cool. And I think people assume that there is more current synergy than there is. Our work is just so very different. And especially your work is so much more like full litigation. And I’m thinking a lot more about the technology. And it’s just, it’s just very different. So when I try to explain like really more when we talk about like the news. It was a little bit different when I was with, with, with Everlaw you would ask me to do like how to give you tech support. That was when it was more interesting. Yeah. But now and we were just sort of delighted by it.

Jeff Niemczura 24:34
Yeah. And as I’m thinking about it, I feel like because because we sort of entered into this work in in tandem with COVID. I think it’s less unusual for people, because a lot of people even if they have very different jobs suddenly found themselves sharing office space at home with their spouses. So I think people are a little less, a little less curious, or were pressing about that, because they’re also used to it themselves. So I don’t think there haven’t been a lot of

Alexis Hayman 24:57
I think that there are a lot of couples, though, around where both have found their way into this, I think because it is really interesting. And if you’re in the legal space, it ends up it’s an enticing kind of work to get into because you can be innovative in a way you can’t

Jeff Niemczura 25:12
And there’s ton of opportunity because it’s it’s changing so much. There’s always new roles and challenges that you can so I think people who are, who are enterprising about how they want to spend their professional time, like often gravitate here that lends itself to creativity in a nice way.

Greg Lambert 25:27
we have found once we kind of sprouted this idea of doing the and the love and legal tech series that there’s a lot more people out there and we hadn’t anticipated. So let me ask about the kind of the, we’re calling it the work life integration. So when you come home at night from from work, do you have like a rule that says, you know, work stays here? Or is it how do you balance that so that it’s not kind of a 24/7 thing, and I imagine having a couple of kids helps do that.

Alexis Hayman 26:01
I was gonna say we talked about so much else. I mean, we do talk about innovation a lot and then the work piece. I think one of the for me, one of the nicest things in my work, you know, sometimes I’ll it will be like 9:30 in the morning and I’ll be like, I just can’t wait till it It’s nine o’clock PM, and we can just turn on Beavis and Butthead. And, like, not just not do anything anymore, or genuinely enjoy spending time together doing any other activity. Yeah, we don’t even know like,

Jeff Niemczura 26:31
yeah, we’re not real rule setters about that. I think that I think that they don’t think we need to Yeah, professional talk is just part of the soup. On the rare occasion that that one of us raises, you know, a frustration or a curiosity about work, and the other one’s just not up for it. We just changed the subject, it’s

Alexis Hayman 26:47
No you, you listen, you like performatively, listen, and I’m out here. I don’t carry

Greg Lambert 26:53
Do you go to your safe spot in your head or safe place in your head,?

Alexis Hayman 26:59
I go back, and then resave he does more direct. I’ll just be doing it. I’ll be doing something else. And I’ll just say just so you know, I don’t really care right now.

Jeff Niemczura 27:09
I know, I love that.

Alexis Hayman 27:10
I know you do.

Jeff Niemczura 27:12
I like things that are definitive.

Greg Lambert 27:16
So what are you guys doing? And I know, Alexis, you’re pretty new in your position. But, you know, what are you guys doing in your individual jobs that you find that you’re finding exciting lately.

Jeff Niemczura 27:29
One of the things I’ve really liked about the work I’m doing currently is it’s, it’s often novel, there’s often something very new and therefore kind of intense going on with the things I’m able to work on. So I’m never bored. There’s always some creative solution that needs to be found. And I work with a, with a really great group of people that are who are great to collaborate with. And so I’m in a lucky position where I know that I’m going to have something interesting to work on every day. And I know that I trust my colleagues and enjoy being with them. And that’s my basic answer to that.

Alexis Hayman 28:02
Yeah, well, I do feel like we’re both very lucky to be in roles that are well resourced, and, you know, there isn’t. I don’t know, the last time I was like, grumpy about work, it’s, I think we’re both like, Australian Shepherd dogs. You know, I think we’re both like people that thrive with a lot to do, and a lot of resources to do it. And we’re very lucky to be in roles where we have that. For me, it’s, like I said, it’s very cool to be at the, on the front end of that client relationship, at the start of the customer experience and the client journey, the customer journey, right? You know, it’s sort of like getting my hands on the wheel a little bit more. And, and I’m coming at it from a place of really thinking hard about other colleagues who’ve been in this in these business development roles, asking just so many questions, not just about how they do what they do, but what the experience was like for them, how they make decisions and and becoming not only, you know, my roles as my role and customer successes as a trusted adviser, but I also was able to be as functionally an advisor to the business development team. And I would sometimes get dinged on the no dinged, but like, boy, Alexis really likes those salespeople. But I thought it was interesting how they were approaching these these relationships for at the very start, and so I would let them know hey, this is what it’s this is what the resources are downstream. This is how I, this is how I think you should scope it, just given what I can see from where I am. And being able to jump over the other side. Is it’s exciting. Yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s different than being the copilot, you know, the navigator copilot is nerve racking. I’m not bored. I’m not as rehearsed at those conversations. I could do you know, Intro trainings and all that onboarding program and write an onboarding program in a week for any tool, but now it’s, I find myself feeling very

Greg Lambert 29:53
well, now we’re at the point where we normally ask our crystal ball question, but we’ve been we’ve rebranded it for the love and legal tech series as our Valentine’s questions. So what advice would you give another couple who are considering working in either the same field or working together in the same business? Alexis, let’s start with you.

Alexis Hayman 30:14
Yeah, it’s my advice to people who are thinking about getting married. Right. Two pieces of advice. You got Have fun, this person better be your friend. Like, this should be someone who is truly your friend that you enjoy being with that you have fun with. And the flip side to that is advice my my mother gave me, which was marry somebody that you can see yourself divorcing, which is a tough thing to hear.

Greg Lambert 30:41
What did she mean by that?

Alexis Hayman 30:42
I know everyone’s like, What do you mean, to me, it makes perfect sense. Somebody that you can see you can picture it, even the worst possible outcome and that person remaining upstanding character, and being kind to you and never holding their commitments and to you hostage to some some performance. And my parents are, were had the best of worse on the planet, they showed, never wavered in their respect for each other. I think partnership and collaboration, whether it’s work or a marriage, or anything could could have could end in a way that you don’t expect. And having the comfort of saying even in the worst case scenario, this person will respect me and still uphold their commitments to me, because work is very personal. This is why we fight about it. But it is very personal. And that again, called a shout out to Karen Groedel. When I first interviewed with her she work is so many people’s identity. And when you are discriminated at work, or you have a problem at work, or you have you know, it cuts so deep. And so to bring your partner into that is, I think very serious. And something you should consider not just from a practical angle, but you know, it’s not it’s not just you can’t clock out. It’s part of your identity. That was a pretty heavy answer. But I hope that it’s helpful.

Jeff Niemczura 31:59
I love that answer. Yeah.

Alexis Hayman 32:01
I’m a little bit stunned drunk right now.

Greg Lambert 32:06
Jeff, what, what’s your advice?

Jeff Niemczura 32:08
It’s gonna be a little redundant, which is probably a good thing is it’ll show that we’re, you know, philosophically aligned. But you have to, you have to be friends. And I think what I’ll drill down on with that is, you have to be curious about one another. You have to want to know what’s going on. And if you do it, right, working in the same area lends itself to that, because you have a leg up on understanding what your partner is doing with her time, and what she cares about and what her challenges might be. But to me, it’s, it’s, and so of course, it’s a struggle, right? But, but giving your time and attention in a real way, like developing a true curiosity for what is going on with my partner in all aspects of your life. That’s how you feel understood. That’s how you keep and establish trust. And I think that, as Alexis said, the answer is the same. If you’re talking about getting married or working together, it’s just compounded a little bit. If you’re, if you’re aligned to if you’re entering to that, and I think that’s it, right, like no escape, right? That’s, that’s, that’s the tough risk there. Right? You’re always together anyway, you might have a family together. Now you work together. where’s the where’s the vows? Right. And so we do a great job I think of, of trusting each other and having true curiosity for each other’s lives. And I think that’s really important. We also do a great job of giving each other space, we’re sitting in this, this cabin in the desert that we have, and we’ll go on solo trips here and give the other one some room. And, and I think that sort of thing, just understanding what, what each person needs, what they’re going through and being a true trusted support. It’s stuff we should be doing anyway.

Greg Lambert 33:45
Excellent. Well, Jeff Niemczura and Alexis Hayman, I want to thank both of you for coming on The Geek in Review and sharing your love and legal tech story. Thank you.

Jeff Niemczura 33:54
It’s a pleasure. Thank you.

Alexis Hayman 33:56
Thank you.

Greg Lambert 33:59
And of course, thanks to everyone listening for listening to The Geek in Review podcast. If you enjoy the show, please share it with a colleague. We’d love to hear from you. So reach out to us on social media I can be reached at @glambert or glambert on X or more likely on LinkedIn. Marlene can be reached @gebauerm on X or Marlene Gebauer on LinkedIn. Alexis and Jeff if people wanted to learn more about you, we’re good place for them to reach out?

Alexis Hayman 34:31
On LinkedIn is great. I’m a LinkedIn girlie, my favorite social media platform. Alexis Haman there’s only a couple of us

Jeff Niemczura 34:40
The same. And if you really want to dig Deep you can look up my musical project glowing burns. glowing burn.

Greg Lambert 34:47
I’ll have to look to look that up. So. All right. Well, thank you both and speaking of music, the music from love and legal tech is from Jerry David DeCicca and his partner Eve Searls. So thanks Jerry and Eve. All right, thanks, guys.

Jeff Niemczura 35:02
Thanks Greg