Breaking Barriers and Building Bridges: Tackling Racial Bias in Law with LexisNexis Fellows 2023 (TGIR Ep. 231)

In this episode, Greg Lambert speaks with Whitney Triplet, Paul Campbell, and Adonica Black about the LexisNexis African Ancestry Network and LexisNexis Rule of Law Foundation Fellowship 2023 cohort. They discuss the goal of the fellowship program and the projects undertaken by the fellows, including technology solutions to alleviate racial bias in jury selection and law clinic support tools to combat systemic racism in the legal system. The conversation also covers the role of analytics in identifying and addressing disparities in the legal system, as well as the future of the fellowship program and initiatives.

Takeaways

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Music: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Jerry David DeCicca⁠⁠⁠⁠

Transcript

Greg Lambert 0:09
Welcome to The Geek in Review. The podcast focused on innovative and creative ideas in the legal profession. I’m Greg Lambert and I will be running this one so low as Marlene had some things pop up that caused her not to be able to attend this and she sends her apologies to everyone. But on this week’s episode, we are very, very happy to talk with two of the fellows from the LexisNexis African Ancestry Network and LexisNexis Rule of Law Foundation Fellowship 2023 cohort. We have Whitney Triplet is a 3L at Southern University Law Center and co author of the paper Technology Solutions to Alleviate Jury Biases. Whitney, great to have you on.

Whitney Triplet 1:00
Thank you so much for having me, Greg.

Greg Lambert 1:03
And we also have Paul Campbell, who is a fourth year of his part-time studies at the University of the District of Columbia, David David A. Clarke School of Law and co authored the paper Law Clinic Support Tools and Resources to Combat Systemic Racism in the Legal System. Paul, thanks for being here as well.

Paul Campbell 1:25
Thank you for having me, sir.

Greg Lambert 1:27
And we are also thrilled to have Adonica Black, the Director of Global Diversity and Inclusion for LexisNexis legal and professional and she is the also the Director of LexisNexis’ African Ancestry Network and, and LexisNexis Rule of Law Foundation Fellowship. So wow, you get like three jobs, right?

Adonica Black 1:49
There’s a few in there.

Greg Lambert 1:52
Well, that’s good. I’m sure you get three salaries as well.

Adonica Black 1:55
Of course.

Greg Lambert 1:58
So Well, thank you. Thank you, Adonica for being here as well.

Adonica Black 2:03
Thanks for having me, Greg. Happy to be here.

Greg Lambert 2:06
All right, so Adonica, a couple of years ago, we had Ronda Bazley Moore from LexisNexis, about the previous 2022 report where fellows from the historically black colleges and universities or HBCUs. Law schools were given one very, very complex task, and that was to uncover how LexisNexis products could be used to address and eliminate systemic racism in the legal system. So can you tell us a little bit about what the goal was for the 2023 report and fellowship program?

Adonica Black 2:44
Absolutely. So just as you said, we have had three cohorts now of fellows since we started the fellowship in 2021. And so in that time, we’ve had 45 fellows as of the end of this year’s cohort. And in the first two years, we had fellows working on individual projects that we asked them to propose the solution using LexisNexis is legal technology in our amazing talent to tackle systemic racism and systemic inequities in our legal system. And after two years, we had about 30 projects. And we sat back and recognized that we were at a point where we needed to really dive deeper into where we could drive impact. So with our third cohort, we adjusted the model to have a project based approach with teams. And we had 15 fellows this year on five teams reach, and had them really focus on a specific area that we after reviewing those previous years identified that we could actually do something about. And the unifying theme between those projects were the marrying of technology, and their legal acumen to really impact issues within the legal system positively and advance Equity. So we had our 50 fellows this year working on those five projects. And I’ll just give you a quick overview of what they were. Why I like to call them kind of cradle to grave issues that we encounter in the legal system. Because we truly start from youth. Our first project called the Gavel League is a mobile application. And their project is focused on developing a mobile app that’s been gamified to increase literacy and comprehension of critical rule of law concepts for youth and for children, and also for their parents and their guardians to help them understand kind of what are the rights what rights your children have? And in our research, we uncovered that the lack of representation of legal profession really starts from youth. And from maybe sometimes having a negative impression or negative association with the legal system, so we’re stuck trying to correct that in the beginning. And then moving forward to our next project. Our next project is I, Too, Sing America, uncovering untold US history through the law. And that particular project is focused on creating an accessible repository of inclusive curriculum resources for law school instruction. So once you actually come interested in the law, you go into law school, what are you actually going to learn in law school, and that project is focused on making the curriculum more culturally competent, so that all lawyers not just a specific background, can really zealously advocate for all of their clients. And then the third project, once you’ve left law school, that you think about being professional. So that is our Pathways to Practice Pipeline: Building Bridges for HBCU Students to Legal Fields Lacking Diversity. And that project is focused on three arms of the profession, the judicial clerkship, corporate counsel, and big law representation of Diversity in the profession. So providing resources to help underrepresented attorneys be successful and become leaders in the profession themselves. We’ve got our fourth project, that’s Technology Solutions to Alleviate Racial Bias in Jury Selection, which Whitney is going to tell us all about. But just very quickly, focus on our right to a representative jury, and our legal system. And then our fifth project is our Law Clinic Support Tools & Resources to Combat Systemic Racism in the Legal System, which Paul will tell us about, and that really is about how people access justice in our country. Many people don’t have access to justice, but through a legal clinic, so they focused on how to make this legal clinics more effective. So that really is the kind of cradle to grave approach we’re taking and thinking about how do we incrementally impact the legal system?

Greg Lambert 6:59
Yeah, that sounds like a great way to organize a very, again, a very complex topic. And before we dive in into the individual papers with the with Paul and Whitney, I’m assuming and I, if I remember, right, from looking at your co authors, they were at other HBCUs as well. So this was a remote type project. How did you find that? Did you find that you made new friendships and and relationships with with folks at other schools? Whitney, I’ll ask you that one.

Whitney Triplet 7:40
Sure. We utilize it was kind of a hybrid thing. So we started online, and we were able to meet in person twice. But the structure of it, it did allow us to be able to meet new friends. Funny story really quickly Favour [Okhuevbie]. One of the young ladies on my team, she and I had just attended the Miss JD Conference in Washington, maybe a month or so before that. So you know, we saw each other online. And when we met as a group, and when we finally met in the airport, like, wow, I know you from somewhere. It was like, Well, yeah, you know, we’re in LexisNexis together, and she was like, I remember you from Miss JD. So it was really fine getting to connect with people in other regions.

Greg Lambert 8:29
Paul, how was your experience?

Paul Campbell 8:32
Same with wonderful, you know, meeting other students from throughout the country and learning about their experiences and their plans and all the wonderful things that they’re doing with their different clerkships and internships.

Greg Lambert 8:50
Well, the collaboration, especially the remote, and being able to make it a hybrid situation, probably much better than the two previous cohorts, I think, who, who may have had to do everything online, if I recall

Adonica Black 9:06
Well, in the first year, we did get a chance to get together because that was at the end of 2021. And it was a very controlled, when tested for it kind of very small gathering. And then in 2022, we did have a larger gathering, which was nice to actually see each other in real life. But this year, like Whitney said, we got a chance to see each other twice. So that was really nice, because he just build on those bonds. And we did fun things to like we did. One of the I think the mission of the fellowship, in addition to advancing the rule of law is developing our fellows and making sure that they’re really well prepared to be legal professionals. So a big part of the legal profession, in addition to your education are, you know, kind of your social skills and business acumen. So we took our fellows through a golf clinic, we did a wine tasting where they learned kind of how do you do a business dinner with a client so we did some fun things too. which is great.

Greg Lambert 10:00
Awesome, good, good. It’s nice to have a well rounded experience like that. So well, I want to go through both of your papers and just kind of talk about some of the highlights of that. And, Paul, I’m going to start with you. But I’m going to encourage Whitney and Adonica, if you get some comments, please feel free to jump in. So, Paul, your paper focused on the Law Clinic phase, the I think it was the fifth phase, or fifth part of this, and it was on support tools and resources to combat systemic racism in the legal system. What in during your research on this? What do you believe are the most critical steps needed for this reform?

Paul Campbell 10:54
That’s a great question, I definitely think that additional funding and resources for legal clinics will be the most critical steps because those actions will allow more low income people to receive the legal services that they need. So many people are turned away, or they’re only given limited services, because of the clinical resources. So sometimes the resources are human. But sometimes, they’re found in other sources, such as AI tools, which will allow clinics to be more efficient. So for example, I’m currently a student attorney. And a significant portion of my time during intake days is spent getting personal information from the clients. And when you have AI tools that can extract that information quicker, then it will allow student attorney such as myself or clinical supervisors, to spend more time focusing on legal analysis and providing other services.

Greg Lambert 11:58
So were there any I know they had that that tool there? And that’s something that I think affects pretty much all legal practices with your solo or in a in a large firm or even even in government is that you know, almost clerical type information where you’re having to take that same information and put it in multiple places, is something that hopefully we can get the the technology to, to advance. But so let me ask you, how do you how do you see the role of legal education evolving, to better prepare future lawyers for addressing issues of Equity and justice? So what’s kind of been your experience?

Paul Campbell 12:44
Well, I noticed that more law schools are offering classes which are geared towards people who are interested in making our society a more perfect union. You know, many battles that affect Equity, injustice, in our country are fought in the courts. And I think law schools will continue to create people who will sacrifice for the greater good. The ABA requirement for experiential learning is very helpful. And so it doesn’t require clinical participation. But many law students are choosing to participate in legal clinics. So I think, in addition to those requirements, just the curriculum expansion, so that people can learn about history, trailblazers, as well as the current conditions, which impact many people in our country.

Greg Lambert 13:38
Well said, well said, so can you share any of the personal experiences on you know, the work that that you’ve done that may have shaped or your own experiences that has shaped your view on Equity in the legal system?

Paul Campbell 13:55
Well, I think we have a great legal system, one of the best in the world. But it’s not perfect, especially regarding the way that some such as African Americans, like myself are treated sometimes. But I was deeply influenced by Thurgood Marshall. And he showed me that we can take action to improve the legal system and create a better tomorrow.

Greg Lambert 14:22
Awesome, that’s he’s my hero, too. So what’s the future look look like for you? What kind of career aspirations do you have either within or outside the legal industry?

Paul Campbell 14:39
Well, I hope to pass the Florida Bar and practice real estate law. And I’m also in the Army Reserves. So I hope to you know, stick with it and retire. Right now. I’m a signal officer, so I hope to switch to become a JAG officer.

Greg Lambert 14:56
Awesome. Awesome. So I’m, I’m an old enlisted guy. From the from the 80s. So we had different colored uniforms back then backbone.

Paul Campbell 15:10
So thank you for your service, sir.

Greg Lambert 15:12
Thank you. Well, Whitney, let’s let’s turn to you now. And your contribution to the report was a, you researched and discussed technology solutions to alleviate racial bias in jury selection. And I think a lot of us don’t really kind of think about that. So could you elaborate a little bit more on the key strategies and solutions that can be implemented to achieve in this that you found in your report?

Whitney Triplet 15:44
Certainly. So like you said, a lot of people don’t realize the intricacies that jury selection, and that whole process entail So just briefly, the jury pool is so like the randomly using, you know, whatever your jurisdiction has decided it’s going to be their source. So they pull those names, and randomly, so to speak, people receive summons. And once you receive that summons, you come in, and you go through an interview, or voir dire, and certain jurors are kit, certain jurors are excluded, and the law allows in most jurisdiction, it allows a certain amount of people to be dismissed for no reason at all, the attorney or the prosecutor has, you know, no obligation to tell why they are sending this person away. But it cannot be based on race in particular, which is what we focused on. And in a lot of areas, people are being dismissed because of their race. So our project wanted to determine how we could help people to one realize their implicit biases that are causing some of these strikes. Because we like to believe that people have good intentions, when you know, serving in the Justice Department, we like to believe that some of these are not necessarily intentional choices. So one, we wanted to look at the implicit bias. And two, we wanted to see what could LexisNexis provide, that would help to check those biases. So we were able to come up with or further because the cohort last year started here. So we were able to further a jury selection dashboard. And what it does, it allows you to see what a jury should look like or what the composition should look like, based on the demographics of that particular jurisdiction. So it’s a guide.

Greg Lambert 17:38
is the guide directed toward the the attorneys in Voir Dire or is it the judge? Who would be the best to receive this information?

Whitney Triplet 17:54
So it’s multipurpose, and it is suited for all practitioners, whether you’re the judge and someone who’s challenging a strike that the opposition has made. And you want to see, you know, what are your really your range of, Okay, should I let this person be dismissed? Or can the numbers not support dismissing this person, so it does provide help for the judge. But it also provides like a checking system for attorneys and for prosecutors, because, you know, based on the jurisdiction, I should have a certain amount of this race, a certain amount of the next race and a certain amount of this race, to make a what we call a fair cross section. So it’s really able, you know, to assist everybody that’s in that process.

Greg Lambert 18:42
Okay. What do you think are some of the biggest challenges that you’ve identified in your research when it comes to trying to ensure this racial equality within the legal system, especially within jury selection?

Whitney Triplet 18:59
The biggest problem is definitely systematic. The law allows, like I said, a person to be removed from the perspective jury, so it’s really hard to want someone or a group of people to follow a kind of undefined law, because the Constitution doesn’t say that, you know, word for word or verbatim, that a jury has to look like the community. But case law tells us that it does. So you know, case law is not always as strong as what the Constitution says or it’s arguable that this is not even a requirement. So getting people to adhere to moral values versus necessarily the black letter law is the most difficult and then in addition to that, and to compound that problem. You want your client to win. So you want to make choices that are going to be beneficial to your client. And even if those choices sometimes push the envelope of what should be morally acceptable.

Greg Lambert 20:07
Yeah, I can, I can see that’s that’s going to be a large obstacle. So. So how do you plan to continue making this type of positive impact in advancing the rule of law, and when once you graduate?

Whitney Triplet 20:23
I plan to continue taking opportunities, such as the LexisNexis Rule of Law Foundation, and the African Ancestry Network Fellowship that was provided, and just learn as much as I can and just to be a tool to my community, wherever I’m needed, wherever I can pitch in, and I see there’s a problem. And I’m capable of providing a solution just to have that availability.

Greg Lambert 20:46
Well, thanks both of you for for taking the time and making effort and contributing to the report. I think this is something that everyone can take a look at and learn from so Adonica, I want to I want to come back to you. And so from your perspective, at LexisNexis, what role do you think that analytics can play in identifying and addressing some of the disparities in the legal system? Because I think once people kind of see the numbers, it can kind of make it real for for people.

Adonica Black 21:29
Yeah, I think you hit the nail on the head there, Greg, at our organization, we are absolutely focused on bringing reliable artificial intelligence, including analytics, generative AI, visualization, data analytics, all kinds of technology, on to the legal community. And one of the things I’ve really been thinking about is, what does inclusion and Diversity have to do with this wave of technology? And one of the things that keeps standing out to me is this technology is perfectly imperfect, right? So whatever you put into it is exactly what you’re gonna get out of it every time, which I think is amazing. But also can be scary if you don’t put the right things into it. Right. So to your question about what role can data analytics and technology play in this? I think that if we are able to put the right inputs into this technology to recognize bias, one, that means we have to accept that biases do exist. And then make sure that we have diverse data sets that we are capturing a full breadth of experiences. And then through that utilize this technology to uncover that data, recognize those patterns, and really help us understand why and what is so similar when these issues occur over time through our data analytics. And I think we have an amazing opportunity here to do that. Because the technology, again, is perfectly imperfect. So it will perfectly recognize these patterns that sometimes humans may miss or avoid, if we set it to do that. So I think that there’s this amazing precipice that we could do something about.

Greg Lambert 23:19
Whitney, and Paul, I want to follow up with you guys on on this and drag you drag you into the analytics issue. Because I’m sure that in your research, that one, you were able to access some of the analytics that were provided with the tools that were given to you. And also I’m assuming here, but also you may have been given some guidance, some some guidance from people on how to use the analytics and approach it in into your research. So Whitney, let me ask you Is that how did that help kind of back up the things that you were finding was some some actual statistics?

Whitney Triplet 24:01
So we were fortunate enough to be able to administer a survey. And that survey allowed us to gather real time and current sentiments on how people feel about the judicial process. And one that allowed us to have a foundation and to establish, you know, statistically that there is a problem, you know, when I’m making up this problem is not fabricated. This is what the public says, and this is what we notice, these are the reasons for it. So having those numbers one is supports our purpose, it supports the work that we’re doing. And also as Adonica said, what you put into the system is what you get out of it. So we were afforded the ability to go through with a data specialist to go through the numbers that we collected, and to be able to say, Okay, we asked this question this way. But the way we asked this question could have been biased, so let’s change it to reflect you know what we really meant, so that we can get a more accurate showing. So looking at the numbers and applying them to the problem, it provides a better source for the data that we’re going to input into these artificial intelligence systems to make sure that we are not adding our own biases to the dataset.

Greg Lambert 25:13
Interesting. Yes, surveys are a unique animal and have to be viewed. And certainly that’s why there’s professionals that that do the So, Paul, what about you? What kind of analytics experience did you have in your in your research?

Paul Campbell 25:33
Yeah, so we had great mentors, Mr. Kidd, you know, he’s a big statistics guy. And we did a survey as well of the clinicians throughout the country. So we were able to find out, what is it that these legal clinics need, and that can help us to build a business case to LexisNexis and other stakeholders about how we can continue to improve the lives of poor and low income people throughout the country. So not only did we do research, and talk to other humans, but we were able to consult sources, which talked about, you know, how much legal services typically cost? How many people are, you know, turned away when they seek legal services? And all of those things could allow us to document our findings, but even provide recommendations to the next group of fellows so they can investigate, like, well, some of the top elite universities in our country that have legal clinics, such as Harvard, or Georgetown, what are they doing? And how can we learn from those schools, and use some of those tools and techniques in some of the HBCUs, which historically, haven’t had the same amount of resources. And we also found out about, you know, some of the HBCU law schools closing down, like, I never knew that that happened before this research. So it also inspired me to be like, Miss Mary McLeod Bethune, like, how can I do something so that when I’m dead and gone, make an impact so that more young people, especially black people who want to be attorneys can get that opportunity to do so?

Greg Lambert 27:28
Great, great. Well, Adonica, I want to give you a chance to kind of do some bragging on the fellows, and the fellowship program. So what do you think kind of? What are some of the highlights and that result from this type of fellowship? And is there some other things that LexisNexis is doing that people should know about?

Adonica Black 27:54
Yeah, I could talk about this forever right? I, I’m sure you notice me just like smiling and nodding with with Whitney and Paul, because I’m so proud of them, and so thoroughly impressed by the work that they’re doing. And just the thoughtfulness and with which they approach their projects. And I think that’s true of all of our fellows. All of our fellows come from very unique backgrounds themselves, right? Not only are they maybe overtly diverse in terms of maybe race or ethnicity, but also we’ve got a range of classes of ages, we’ve got a range of statuses from Paul to being in the military, to some some of our fellows be parents to some being part time students, some being full time employees at other places, and they’re all unified around this concept of doing something for our legal system. So I just think that’s amazing in and of itself. And we talk about this mod trainer fellowship program called That Was Then, This is Now and it’s something that we use as a motive fight baiting call for our fellows, because it’s also professional development experience for them. So we’ve asked them to do some heroic things, we’ve asked them to do some public speaking and in front of hundreds of people, we’ve asked them to draft a published report, we’ve asked them to do some significant things that I think for any attorney or aspiring attorney, it may be challenging, and we really rally them with, you know, that was done in terms of you thought maybe you couldn’t do this. And with the time with that effort with the support you’ve gotten, this is now and you have done it. And I think that is true of how we are approaching Inclusion and Diversity as a business as well. We really are thinking very strategically about that was then, in terms of issues that we’ve identified within our own talent community and the external communities within which we serve. And then with applied focus Professional Development, mentorship, sponsorship, really making sure that our all of our talent feels well supported, and championing that sense of inclusion and belonging so that everyone feels committed on this is now, right. So we get to a point where we’re now seeing some of the fruits of that labor. And we are seeing people succeeding in their careers developing professionally, we’re seeing leaders, understanding what it means to contribute and lead and maintain an inclusive culture, and then supporting it and wanting to champion that, because they recognize the value for themselves in the business. So there’s a lot that we’re doing in this space. And I’m really, again, just very proud of the work that is happening. But I recognize that we’re on a journey, and we are continuing.

Greg Lambert 30:48
Excellent. Well, I love the concept of that was then this is this is now and how you’re applying it. And and this is now you get to two of your fellows here on a podcast, they will listen to the podcast, hopefully hundreds and hundreds of people. So. So what’s on the… What do you see for the fellowship program and initiatives going into the future Adonica?

Adonica Black 31:16
Yeah, so, two things that I think we’re looking forward to in the coming year that are exciting to me. One, we are a global organization. So we really want to make sure that we are globally supporting Equity and our legal systems across the world. So we are launching the South African chapter of our fellowship program, we’ve just been launched yet, on Thursday of Thanksgiving, actually. Because it’s not a holiday there. So if you launch with our partners there, and we’re really excited to be able to grow the mission in that way, and hoping to continue to expand across our global communities that we work with and serve. And in terms of impact, we are also evolving to include in addition to law school students, students that have or graduates that have a STEM background, because one of the things that our fellows have helped us to understand in their reports is that these tech solutions are really viable. And so we need people to help us build the technology, we have a lot of prototype work from what our fellows have established. And we are looking to incorporate students that have a background in STEM that can do the software development, do the data analytics, do the data science and user experience research and help us actually develop some of these solutions.

Greg Lambert 32:43
That’s fun. Yeah, I’m, I’m excited about the South African cohorts that you’re creating. I had a chance a few years ago, to go to the Supreme Court in Pretoria, South Africa, in and present and it was really, really enjoy what a wonderful place.

Adonica Black 33:06
We’re partnering with the International Association of Women judges, that Africa chapter for the program launched there. And it’s amazing just to see their commitment and as a nation, how much they emphasize justice. So looking forward to that,

Greg Lambert 33:23
well, if you need a podcaster to go down to South Africa. The unfortunate pneus of being able to do podcasts remotely. So right now we’re at the part of the show where we ask our crystal ball question and that is really what we want you to do is, is pull out your crystal ball and peer into the future for us. So I’ll start with Whitney, you know, what do you see on the horizon for the next, say, two to five years that you hope your work with the fellowship and work on this report will help change or maybe even challenge in the legal industry?

Whitney Triplet 34:13
My project really hit close to home. I’m from Louisiana. And as I’m sure you know, Louisiana has been one of the very last states to outlawed non unanimous jury decisions for criminal convictions. So I am very much interested in continuing that momentum and working to you know, ultimately, I would like to see peremptory strikes with more definitive boundaries. So I definitely see myself working in that field for the next few years.

Greg Lambert 34:47
We’ll keep writing on it and keep fighting on it.

Whitney Triplet 34:51
Thank you.

Greg Lambert 34:52
And Paul, how about you? What do you think your your report will change your challenge in the industry?

Paul Campbell 34:59
I definitely think it will bring awareness to legal clinics, you know, me personally, I have donated to University of Miami general clinic fund as well as Rising for Justice, because as a student attorney, you know, I was able to see firsthand how we, as the legal clinic don’t have the same resources as some of the other entities that are on the other side of the table. So I think LexisNexis, who has made a commitment already to have a clinical page on their website, we’ll continue to improve it and continue to offer services to these legal clinics, and more individuals will hopefully volunteer their time and money to continue to serve the low income populations throughout our country.

Greg Lambert 35:51
Nice. So Adonica, Since you didn’t write the report, let me tell you, you wrote a great introduction to it. Pull out your crystal ball. And what would you see more generally for the legal industry in the next few years when it comes to dealing with with issues of bias and systemic racism?

Adonica Black 36:16
Yeah. I guess I’m biased in the sense that I’m really hopeful. Honestly, I think that this program, in addition to just the general legal community discussion has truly evolved. I’m also an attorney. And I haven’t really seen this level of people be aware, and culturally competent enough to discuss these issues before. And I think AI actually in technology, the advent of technology has really helped us kind of leapfrog to where we need to be having these conversations, and really evaluating and auditing our systems to make sure that the future of our systems are more equitable. So I am really excited about that. And I’m very hopeful that we will continue to see more of that. And I will also want to just quickly recognize that I’m already seeing that. We have great partners in this program. We have a law firm that has sponsored us, Reed Smith, we have partnered with the National Bar Association, and the historically black colleges and law school consortium. And I see it coming up in all of their conversations, all of their conversations are talking about this equitability in the law and how it intersects with technology. So I’m hopeful that that will continue.

Greg Lambert 37:36
Great, great. Well, I’m inspired by the inspiration that you you guys have have given all of us both through your report and you know, through the work that you’re doing, and and we’ll be doing so, Whitney Triplet, and Paul Campbell, thank you very much. And we’re going to put a link to your report so that people can get access to that. And Adonica Black, thank you for pulling us all together and helping the students and getting the getting the ability to one, use the resources that are out there, but to also have the guidance to create this report. So thank you.

Adonica Black 38:21
Thank you so much, Greg.

Greg Lambert 38:26
All right. And of course, thanks to everyone, to all of our listeners for taking the time to listen to The Geek in Review podcast. If you enjoy the show, please share it with a colleague, especially this episode. We’d love to hear from you. So you can reach out to Marlene and me on LinkedIn. And Marlene is on X at @gebauerm and I’m on X at @glambert. Adonica, let me let me ask you, where’s the preferred place for people to find you online?

Adonica Black 38:57
I’m on LinkedIn most all the time. Adonica Black.

Greg Lambert 39:01
All right. And Whitney, how about you?

Whitney Triplet 39:04
The same. I’m on LinkedIn as well. My first name last name, Whitney Triplet.

Greg Lambert 39:08
All right. And Paul.

Paul Campbell 39:11
I’m like totally off the grid, but you can send me an email at Paul.Campbell@udc.edu.

Greg Lambert 39:18
All right. All right. Email is still a legitimate way to converse. So all right, well, thank Thank you all once again for being here. Thank you. And as always, the music you hear is from our friend Jerry David DeCicca Thanks, Jerry. All right. Thanks again everybody.