Dr. Caitlin Handron

When Ropes & Gray launched their R&G Insights Lab consulting arm, one of their goals was to create a dynamic legal team with specialized expertise in analytics, behavioral science, and strategic consulting. Dr. Caitlin Handron completes the behavior science part of that mission, and she talks with us about how that expertise helps guide clients on issues of risk and compliance, DEI goals, and cultural assessments. Dr. Handron’s experience at Stanford University’s SPARQ “Do Tank” prepared her for applying behavioral science to the real world of the corporate environment and put those scientific techniques into practice. While it may seem strange for a law firm to apply these types of scientific principles to the advising of clients, Dr. Handron mentions that the legal environment is really not much different from the rest of the world… as much as we lawyers would like to think we are.

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Information Inspirations
In a recent Bloomberg Law article, former TGIR guest, Olga Mack discusses no-code and low-code processes will be the key to automating tasks, and that a recent Gartner report pointed out that these processes will help reduce legal tasks in in-house legal departments by 50% in just a few years.
Ryan Steadman writes that the rising costs of mental fatigue us costing us dearly at law firms, and that technology is both a solution and a problem.
The Artificial Lawyer took a look at Wilson Sonsini’s Build-A-Bot program and how Summer Associates are required to design bots to improve their processes by using tools like Contract Mill and Documate.
The prosecutors in the Rudy Guiliani case have once again shown that redaction only works when you actually properly use the redaction software. Otherwise, you end up with embarrassing details uncovered on CNN.
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Please take the time to rate and review us on Apple Podcast. Contact us anytime by tweeting us at @gebauerm or @glambert. Or, you can call The Geek in Review hotline at 713-487-7270 and leave us a message. You can email us at geekinreviewpodcast@gmail.com. As always, the great music you hear on the podcast is from Jerry David DeCicca.

Marlene Gebauer  0:23

Welcome to The Geek in Review, the podcast focused on innovative and creative ideas in the legal industry. I’m Marlene Gebauer.

Greg Lambert  0:30

And I’m Greg Lambert. So this week we talk with Dr. Caitlin Handron, with Ropes and Gray’s Insight Lab on how she and her team are helping clients make informed decisions, confront the realities of human biases and create solutions that prioritize individual experiences and needs by applying analytics, behavioral science, and Human Centered Design.

Marlene Gebauer  0:55

That’s easy for you to say.

Greg Lambert  0:56

Yeah, that’s, that was a mouthful, you know, and it’s it’s really interesting that the R&G Insight Labs hired a behavioral scientist to lead this charge and helping clients understand what makes better risk decisions. And you know, we kind of joke in the interview that maybe it might help if the law firms kind of turn that focus inside and use behavioral scientists to look at how we behave.

Marlene Gebauer  1:21

Yeah, so stick around for that. But now let’s get to this week’s information inspirations.

Greg Lambert  1:31

Alright, Marlene, mine is from one of our previous guests, Olga Mack, she’s got a Bloomberg Law article on preparing for the no code and low code age of law.

Marlene Gebauer  1:43


Greg Lambert  1:43

Both of my inspirations have to do with no code and low code. Yeah. So in this article, Olga says that according to a Gartner report, that legal departments will have automated some 50% of their legal work by 2024, with most of that automation being through the low code, or no code application platforms, which will allow lawyers to create processes without actually having to do any hardcore programming. And just to kind of explain a little bit, the no code options are things that allow lawyers to automate processes easily. And the simplest example she gives is an option to have software Save changes to a document every five minutes. So it’s, you know, pretty simple things. And no code also includes some of the simple drag and drop options for users to help pre build solutions that they may use multiple times. Now, low code solutions are those which may take the initial effort of a software developer, but which give the end user a better and more intuitive design and user friendly interface. And Olga gives three simple examples of things to do to prepare for the no code future. And that is become familiar with today’s no code platforms, assess where you, your lawyers and your legal staff are in use of no code apps right now. And finally, keep an eye on the no code movement as it progresses. So there are some legal based products out there like Neota Logic and others, which tout no code capabilities. And you know, we talked about that NYU program a few weeks ago, on the no code sports league, and their use of products like Bubble to help create no code app. So if you’re not on the no code train yet, might want to get on there now before the train fills up.

Marlene Gebauer  3:41

Yeah, so basically, I have to follow #nocode,

Greg Lambert  3:46


Marlene Gebauer  3:48

And you know, I will say, speaking of your NYU platform, or the program rather, I tried to do that for voice. I couldn’t figure out how to get in. So I’m just saying.

Greg Lambert  4:00

So I’ll be quiet.

Marlene Gebauer  4:04

So my first inspiration is regarding a article that Ryan Steadman posted. And it was an interesting article, he wrote about the rising cost of mental fatigue and how technology is the solution, as well as the problem at law firms. Now, the way firms have traditionally operated ambitious billable hours, constant interruptions, and so many administrative tasks, lead to mental exhaustion in some cases, burnout syndrome, and yes, that is a real thing, according to the WHO. So what it is, is you’re mentally exhausted, you’re mentally distant, negative about your job and as a result, and not surprisingly, you are less effective professionally.

Greg Lambert  4:46

does this apply in the legal industry? I don’t understand.

Marlene Gebauer  4:50

I don’t know it’s like ringing any bells here. So a way technology can prevent mental fatigue and burnout syndrome is to eliminate the speedbumps that can drag down productivity, for example, having to log in and out of everything rather than having a single sign on. Not being able to find content because there’s no standard naming convention, or AI to figure that out. Having to learn multiple digital toolkits. I mean, this, this, this all contributes to the yuck of every day. You know, and and, you know, Ryan recognizes that choosing the right technology to promote a positive experience is notoriously difficult to say the least. But there are a few questions to answer before instituting a tech solution. Will there be an immediate value and improvement to the daily work experience? Is the design user intuitive? And does the proposed solution integrate with the existing workflow? And here, I’m going to add something of my own. Does it improve the workflow in the users eyes? And that’s not so easy to assess, you really have to invest some time and effort to dig deep into looking at the problem and really putting yourself in the end users place. So it’s not only having a formal discussion about requirements, it’s about exhibiting empathy to find an appropriate roadmap and solution.

Greg Lambert  6:12

So Marlene, my follow up on the no code, low code topic has to do with Wilson Sonsini is Build-a-Bot program for summer associates.

Marlene Gebauer  6:21

Oh, is that like Build-a-Bear?

Greg Lambert  6:23

Yeah, I think they they do a robot and then they dress it in baby clothes at the end.

Marlene Gebauer  6:28

Do they put a little heart inside?

Greg Lambert  6:30

They do.  Actually, I hate to disappoint you this that’s not anything what it is.

Marlene Gebauer  6:38

Alright, well tell me what it is.

Greg Lambert  6:39

So according to an article in Artificial Lawyer, Wilson Sonsini is requiring that their summer associates participate in this build about program where they need to work with products like documate, or this year’s partner, which is Contract Mill, to create some type of automated or improved process in the workflow. So the summer associates will conceptualize and build their own document automation workflows. And to me, it’s interesting that Wilson Sonsini is doing this with the summer associates, as it seems to me that they’re either going to be the best, or the worst at identifying ways to improve the overall process. So you know, hopefully, they’re the best in that they haven’t developed bad habits over their career. But I’m also guessing that people like Sonsini’s or Wilson Sonsini’s Chief Innovation Officer, David Wang, that he’s going to be there to make sure that they are using the tools effectively and understanding what the processes are, that they are improving. And again, hopefully at the end of the summer, they have a cute little robot that they can dress up.

Marlene Gebauer  7:49

Yeah, well, you know, it’s funny, there really is something to be said for, you know, the beginner mindset. And you know, perhaps the summer associates are really actually a good batch to come out this without any real prior knowledge as to how things are done. They’re just looking at it really differently. And this one is to file under. Woops, my bad. New York federal prosecutors investigating Rudy Giuliani have seized material from a wider group of people than they have previously disclosed. How do we know that? The magic of technology! The court filing where the information was obtained, it looked fine on the surface but had redacted portions that when CNN cut and pasted it into another document, amazingly appeared! Embarrassing to say the least.  Prosecutors had previously indicated that their investigation was expansive, but they had not publicly identified the other recipients of subpoenas or subjects of search warrants. LawTwitter had some fun with this one, of course, our friend Casey Flaherty noted quite rightly that this is not just about technical competence, but meeting professional obligations. And my advices redact properly people.

Greg Lambert  9:02

Yeah, this is like every week now there seems to be some thing and it’s so simple, it’s literally copy and paste from the PDF to word. So. Oh, wow. Well, hopefully, we don’t have to redact any any of this. So that wraps up this week’s information inspiration.

Greg Lambert  9:31

Today’s guest is a PhD in behavioral science, and she’s working with the law firm to help guide clients through the understanding of risk and how to avoid it, or at least know how risk affects their businesses.

Greg Lambert  9:48

We’d like to welcome cultural psychologist Dr. Caitlin Handron, Senior Lab Consultant and behavioral scientist with ropes and Gray’s r&g insights lab. Dr. Hendrick thanks for taking the time to talk with us. The Geek in Review.

Dr. Caitlin Handron  10:01

Thank you so much for having me.

Greg Lambert  10:03

So I have to say, if you would have told me a while ago that there was a behavioral scientist at a law firm, I would have assumed that she was studying the behavior of the lawyers that were actually working in the firm, not necessarily advising the attorneys on how to better understand the work of the firm’s clients. So, you know, first of all, can you just tell us a little bit about your work and focus there, and why Ropes and Gray brought you into the firm as an advisor?

Dr. Caitlin Handron  10:30

Sure, of course. And I would say, it’s not necessarily that I’m not paying attention to what the lawyers are doing. I’m just not specifically there for that reason.

Greg Lambert  10:38

That’s just that’s just a side project.

Dr. Caitlin Handron  10:42

I am a cultural psychologist by training, which means when I was getting my PhD, I got my PhD recently at Stanford, working with cultural psychologists, I was specifically interested in how individual psychological processing is shaped by the broader cultural context. So how do the big ideas about what is good, right and moral get trickled down through institutions, get embodied in policies and law? How does that then shift down into how people are interacting with one another? So what’s happening at the social norms level? How are people attending to their peers or their leaders to decide what’s right? Or what they should be doing? And then ultimately, how does that trickle down to the individual? How does that affect psychological processing? And so I’d say I was brought on because they were very interested in this cultural perspective, we can understand a lot about human behavior. There’s so much to understand, there’s so much to learn, and especially the more that we uncover about how people are irrational, I think we have a lot of gut instincts intuitions about why people are doing what they’re doing. But the more research comes out, the more we can see that people aren’t necessarily logical, they’re following their biases, they’re behaving in ways that don’t make sense to us. And so I’d say that what’s really incredible about what the lab is doing is that they’re recognizing that just policies and procedures aren’t necessarily going to be enough. People are going to step around them, they’re going to take that compliance manual and just put it on the shelf and never read it again. There’s a huge human component going on here that is not being attended to. And what they’re doing at the lab is pulling together a multidisciplinary team to really try to close some of those gaps so that we have not only this incredible legal perspective, but also the perspective of human psychology, why are people doing what they’re doing? What are they going to do what you ask them to do versus not do it? And so on.

Greg Lambert  12:40

So did I’m just curious, did you reach out to Ropes and Gray about this and and pitch this idea? Or did how did Ropes and Gray actually think to bring in a behavioral psychologist to in the first place?

Dr. Caitlin Handron  12:55

I think that was always part of their ambition. The lab started last July. So it hasn’t been that long that the lab has been in place. And I think from the beginning, they saw this as a very team based project. And so they wanted to behavioral scientists from the beginning. And I was brought on because I was responding to a posting that they put out there in the world asking for a behavioral scientist,

Marlene Gebauer  13:17

Caitlin, you mentioned that, you know, you’re you’re looking at, again, why people do what they do. And you know why just rules aren’t enough. And I’m assuming that also is as part of the role of the lab is that you’re offering solutions as to how to, you know how to improve upon, you know, maybe some of these circumstances where there might be friction?

Dr. Caitlin Handron  13:43

Yeah, there are three main focuses of the lab, there’s compliance and risk of diversity, equity, and inclusion initiatives, and cultural assessments. And I’d say that there’s a lot of room for behavioral science and data to enter into each of those different components. I have been spending quite a bit of time on the diversity, equity, inclusion and cultural assessment side of things, because that is where my training is. That’s where I have quite a bit of experience so far. And then on that third pillar, I’ve been learning a lot about compliance and risk. I think, again, this is the beauty of being on teams. I don’t necessarily have to be the expert in the legal world, but it has been fascinating to learn about it. And I do think that by taking the cultural psychological perspective, we are able to come up with solutions, were able to brainstorm and think through why are things happening their way that they are? And one of the key parts of what we do is we try to understand the culture of the organization in order to come up with solutions that might happen all across the organization. So not just changing the policies or not just training, the trainings, but really focusing on how can you make some cultural shifts to get some of the behavior that you’re hoping to see

Marlene Gebauer  15:00

You know, you mentioned that the orangey insight lab is a consulting arm of Ropes and Gray. And, you know, how does this operate alongside the legal practice of Ropes and Gray, the law firm? You know, do you work with particular practice areas? Or is this sort of more of a standalone operation? And you you just sort of offer general insights, how does that work?

Dr. Caitlin Handron  15:23

It’s more of a standalone, they intentionally didn’t want to couch it within a certain particular practice area.

Greg Lambert  15:27

And did they not want the lawyers running it?

Dr. Caitlin Handron  15:33

You know, that’s some of the culture that I’m still finding out a lot about. I’ve heard the term nonlawyers thrown around quite a bit. So I’m beginning to identify that way.

Greg Lambert  15:44

Just tell him that that’s Doctor nonlawyer to you.

Dr. Caitlin Handron  15:51

Yeah, it’s more of a standalone operation. And I think the idea behind it is how could we be a one stop shop for clients, and so we’re definitely there to support. We are there for Ropes and Gray, and we do participate in conversations with the other legal teams clients. But I’d say that we are also here to meet our own clients and set out as a consulting branch that has both the legal side of things as well as the more human centered approach.

Greg Lambert  16:20

You know, one of the I think this may have been the first pillar, you talked about the compliance and risk part. You know, one of the things that lawyers really pride themselves on his being the issue spotters, you know, that we can assess the risk, and we can work with our clients to help mitigate the the existing risk, or even change the behavior for potential exposure to risk. So I imagine that, you know, many of the lawyers or those who are legally trained, maybe listening to this podcast, and may think that, hey, this is something that we’re already doing to help our clients with the risk. So what’s the difference that they are thinking that they are doing when it comes to compliance and risk and what your what the R&G insights lab is doing when it comes to to compliance and risk?

Dr. Caitlin Handron  17:10

This has been one of it’s such a great question. And I think it’s one that I’ve really been grappling with since entering into this space, I, of course, don’t want to be stepping on any toes. And there’s so much incredible work that’s already been done in these spaces. I of course, can enter and flippantly say something about human behavior being really hard to decipher and very hard to follow. When people have built their entire careers, doing investigations and coming up with compliance, and so what do we have to contribute in this space? I’d say, it’s really that new perspective. It’s not necessarily that we are here to do anything better, or replace anything that’s already existing, but it’s in order to come in and say that there might be pieces that are being overlooked. And one perspective, for example, behavioral science has become a very flashy term that gets thrown around a lot people are very interested in what behavioral science is and how it can serve us. And one perspective that I have, especially coming from my department that does a lot of work on cultural psychology, is recognizing that a lot of what we know about human behavior is actually very specific from Western countries, WEIRD countries, as I identified in my field, Western, Educated, Industrialized, Rich and Democratic, nearly 85% of

Greg Lambert  18:35

somebody worked really hard to make it say WEIRD.

Dr. Caitlin Handron  18:40

Very brilliant scholars out there. Absolutely. Yeah, they call us WEIRD. And they identified that about 85% of the research that we have, it comes from WEIRD populations. And so when we think about what we know, about human behavior, it’s actually very limited. And so I think what a cultural perspective has to offer is to say that there’s a lot more going on under the surface, there’s a lot more that we can understand by thinking through what are the broader factors influencing people. And so that’s a perspective that psychology itself needs to learn. So I’m coming from my field where we would bash our heads up against and say like, there’s the rest of the world there is more than just weird contacts. And there’s a lot more that we can understand about human psychology if we’re to pay attention beyond what has currently gotten a lot of focus. And I guess I feel like if my field needs to be hearing that then there’s probably a lot of other contexts that need to be hearing that as well that there are a lot of places that can learn what it means to take a cultural perspective and what it means to put the human in context and attend to not only some of these biases that are just human cognitive biases, according to the behavioral science literature. But also what are some of the broader motivators that are really pushing people to do what they’re doing or pay attention to what they’re paying attention to? So I’m not sure that might have been a roundabout answer to say, I’m not trying to step on anyone’s toes.

Marlene Gebauer  20:14

So Caitlin, you’ve already mentioned that there’s there’s a three prong mission and helping clients rights from a lab, it’s its first to make informed decisions, second, to confront the realities of human biases. And third, creating solutions that prioritize individual experiences and needs. To accomplish those goals, you’re going to have to apply analytics, behavioral science and Human Centered Design. I think we’ve hit on the behavior science part. But how are you gathering and leveraging analytics?

Dr. Caitlin Handron  20:46

We are currently in the process of fleshing this out, I’d say that we have people with incredible experience and analytics on our team. I think in the future, we plan to pull in data analysts. We talk a lot about experimentation and how we can even begin gathering the data. So huge part of the psychological approach, at least how I was trained as an experimental psychology. So we can use not only our expertise and our training to try to come up with what are potential solutions, but we can also experiment to find out whether or not the data supports what we believe is going to be working. And so I’d say a big part of how we approach everything on the data side of things is to not only measure and track what we’re doing, but then to also throw in experimentation when we can, in order to see if things are having the effects that we would want them to have.

Greg Lambert  21:41

Well, I wasn’t going to skip over the behavioral science part. But now that I think about it and heard this, you know, we were talking about the human biases. So how are you applying the behavioral science part when it comes to the biases that we all we all have?

Dr. Caitlin Handron  21:57

Yeah, I think it’s a, it’s a great point. And the way that we approach it is to think through what biases exist. So I guess a lot of people have maybe different ideas of what comes to mind when we talk about these biases. So some people might be thinking about racial biases, and might be thinking about cognitive biases. And one of the ways that we approach this is to look at the literature and understand what has already been done out there in terms of understanding, where do people have these biases? And how can we intervene? One of the better known biases is to think about things in terms of effect, fixed mindset, as opposed to a growth mindset. Are you familiar with this? Yes, yeah. It’s pretty well known research at this point by Carol Dweck and other researchers who have followed her. But there’s this tendency that is culturally embedded, to think about intelligence as fixed instead of as something that has the potential to grow beyond. So that’s a place where you can intervene at an organizational level, like how do organizations communicate that this is what the expectation is, and this is how we view people? And you can also intervene at the individual level to really challenge some of the ideas that people have. In terms of other biases. We do know that one of the best defenses against bias is to slow down when people are distracted or hungry or tired, they have a tendency to rely a lot more on those biases. So we think through how, what are those critical points when we really need people to be cognitively free and present and able to be mindful on the tasks that they’re doing. And what are the conditions that we have to set up in order to enable people to come to work in that way? And so we’re actually in the process of developing different modules to help people identify some of those key points where they can intervene on their own behavior or on their own on their own behavior. So for example, who do people follow on LinkedIn or on their social media? This is one of those key points in terms of understanding where is are you getting your information? Because a lot of people might not recognize just how biased the inflow of information is, from their different sources, what who are the authors that are writing the books that you’re reading? Who are the directors and the writers who are putting together the TV and film? So thinking through not only what do we do in the moment to address a bias, but how can we go upstream to try to change some of those biases in the first place? Where are these ideas coming from? And how can we try to change some of the input that people have in order to reduce the bias in the first place?

Greg Lambert  24:50

And it’s interesting that in and I think it’s there should be some kudos out to the companies that are taking this on, because I think of the recent issue with with companies like Coinbase, where I think they had like a third of their employees quit, because they basically shut those conversations down. They said you can’t have these conversations. So I know that they’re, you know, they’re uncomfortable conversations, how do you go about and approach a client to engage and have those conversations?

Dr. Caitlin Handron  25:32

I’d say with a lot of patience.

Greg Lambert  25:37

You, too have to slow down.

Dr. Caitlin Handron  25:39

Yeah. And you probably could have heard it in my voice, like you take a deep breath, you reorient. And I think you need to come prepared to really listen and find out where people are at. And what do they want. I think at the end of the day, people’s priorities may be a little different. But there are some general themes that you could probably pull out like, people want to be a good person, they want to show up well in the world, they want to have a life that is respectable. And when you start from a place of recognizing that they’re usually good intentions, and especially when you’re being invited in for one of these projects, then it means that people are ready to take that next step. And they just might not know what it is. And I think often, what we’ve seen is a lot of accusatory approaches where people are very upset that things haven’t changed, and they want to see change. And so there can be a lot of urgency. And so the question is, how do you slow down when there is an urgency? There are people who have been fighting for change their entire lives, for generations. And so how do you say the number one thing we have to do is slow down? And I think there is a way to both hold the urgency and recognize the importance and be able to have the compassion to say that we’re not all at the same place. And we’re not all ready to have the same conversation. But there is a place where we can find common ground.

Marlene Gebauer  27:05

Yeah, that’s essentially how you keep change moving. Right. I mean, it’s it’s, it’s, you’re, you’re playing the long game.

Dr. Caitlin Handron  27:12

Yes, exactly.

Marlene Gebauer  27:13

So I don’t know if the lab is more in, you know, exploratory mode at this point. Or if there are some concrete examples of successes, for applying the behavioral science principles in the firm environment. You know, I’m curious if there’s anything that you can share in that regard, you know, sort of letting other firms know why they need to have someone like, like you and something like the lab for themselves?

Dr. Caitlin Handron  27:41

Yeah, I think it’s a great, great question. I am on my sixth week so I unfortunately haven’t been here…

Greg Lambert  27:49

You haven’t figured it out by now?

Marlene Gebauer  27:52

she’s she’s she’s she’s slowing down.

Dr. Caitlin Handron  27:57

I can say that there are a number of very compelling projects that have come through that I’ve been able to witness and support a lot of very forward thinking approaches to how can we go beyond what’s currently be done being done? How can we pay attention to all the efforts that people are making, but then actually track to make sure that what they’re doing is, is working?

Marlene Gebauer  28:25

I wanted to go back a little bit you had mentioned your experience extent at Stanford. So how did you work at Stanford University’s SPARQ Think Tank, prepare you for what you’re doing at Ropes and Gray? Are there any behaviors you’ve run into so far that were unexpected?

Dr. Caitlin Handron  28:41

So after my PhD, I joined SPARQ, which is a psychological “Do Tank” at Stanford, where they work on bringing psychological theory out into the real world. It was an incredible lab, I’d say that a lot of what frustrates academics is that they’re producing all this incredible research, but then it gets tucked away and no one ever reads about it or learns about it.

Marlene Gebauer  29:04

So and you said “do tank”, right?

Dr. Caitlin Handron  29:07


Marlene Gebauer  29:08

Okay. I just want to make sure it’s like make sure that I heard that. So,

Dr. Caitlin Handron  29:11

okay, well, then a little air quotes, yes. This is how they self identify. And I respect that. And it is wonderful. So they have all the thinking that academia has done, but then they’re actually partnering with people to try to pull those insights out into the world. And so one of the projects that I was working on while I was there was looking at racial bias in the financial industry. How does the race of different team leaders affect how asset allocators invest? And so I’d say that that project has felt very related to what we’re doing in these spaces. Just thinking through how do people make sense of racial bias and where does it show up in these different processes?

Greg Lambert  29:53

Has there been any experience, I know you’ve only been there six weeks, but is there been any experience within the firm environment or behaviors that you’ve run into that are, may have caught you off guard from your experience of what you had it, it’s the SPARQ?

Dr. Caitlin Handron  30:10

So far, I’d say I haven’t necessarily been caught off guard, I think that it’s actually remarkable how a lot of these issues transfer across different spaces. So even at SPARQ, I was working not only on the, you know, with venture capitalists in the asset allocation, but I was also working with in education and healthcare and a big part of SPARQ is also working with the Oakland Police Department. And so the projects were incredibly varied. And I think one of the reasons that we are able to work across so many different spaces is exactly because these principles of understanding human psychological behavior really can be applied across a lot of different areas. And so I’d say it isn’t necessarily anything new, or that’s caught me off guard, it’s more like finding things that are familiar in a new context. And so there’s just so much learning to be done about the context. Because the norms, the rituals, the culture is are all very different in the legal space.

Greg Lambert  31:13

Once again, the attorneys find out that they were not the unique people that we think we are.

Marlene Gebauer  31:21

And then that the grass is not always greener, someplace else. Well, Dr. Caitlin Handron, thank you so much for joining us on this this interview. This has been great, we’ve we’ve gotten some really great insights. So thank you so much.

Dr. Caitlin Handron  31:37

Thank you for having me.

Greg Lambert  31:42

Marlene, it was great. Having a behavioral psychologist on the show, we

Marlene Gebauer  31:47

I wonder what insight she gained about us.

Greg Lambert  31:49

I know, I know, I was I was afraid to say too much. But it’s really interesting. And we we talked just briefly as as after the recording that man it’d be nice to have them back and maybe bring bring along some members of the team in six months and see see how this projects going. But it’s, you know, I think this is a great idea to have this type of consulting that’s built in, built in, but separate from the law practice itself. And really be interesting to see how, how well the this progresses.

Marlene Gebauer  32:25

Yeah, because i think you know, many times, I think it’s really important to kind of have a third party and certainly, in this case, a third party with with a lot of expertise, kind of go in and do that type of analysis that they’re doing, and make recommendations, because these are really tough issues that we’re dealing with. And, you know, we’re dealing with a lot of, I guess, I would say invisible biases, because again, it’s it’s it’s every individual and it’s it’s very individualized versus an individual’s experience. So, you know, really having someone come in and kind of, you know, sift through that and figure it out. I, you know, is something that that clearly they’re going to be very good at, and will also be able to provide great feedback and insights for for their clients.

Greg Lambert  33:14

Yeah, it’ll be interesting to see how they’re measuring both what’s going on within the clients that they’re advising and how they’re going to measure themselves as far as success. So

Marlene Gebauer  33:29

And what the other thing that was really interesting, too, is like she was talking about how she wasn’t really surprised by what she was seeing in firms versus other industries. So it’s, it’s it’s interesting, even though this is individualized, a lot of it. A lot of it seems to be across the board with with people. So again, those analytics, I think would be really interesting, and then be able to sort of compare that to other industries and see how that looks.

Greg Lambert  33:56

Yeah. So thanks again to Dr. Caitlin Hanlon, for coming on talking to us.

Marlene Gebauer  34:00

Yeah, thank you, Caitlin. Before we go, we want to remind listeners to take the time to subscribe on Apple podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts, rate and review as well. If you have comments about today’s show, or suggestions for a future show, you can reach us on Twitter at @gebauerm or at @glambert, or you can call The Geek in Review hotline at 713-487-7270 or email us at The Geek in Review. podcast@gmail.com And as always, the music you hear is from Jerry David DeCicca. Thank you, Jerry.

Greg Lambert  34:32

Thanks, Jerry. All right, Marlene, I’m gonna go check. Make sure I predicted things properly.

Marlene Gebauer  34:36