Professionals in the legal market are known for focusing on high achievement levels within their careers, and not so much on how much joy they derive from working in the profession. Tracy LaLonde, author of The Joychiever Journey: Evade Burnout, Surpass Your Goals and Out-Happy Everyone, says that achievement and joy are not mutually exclusive and that we can live lives that allow us to achieve our goals and experience joy at the same time. LaLonde discusses how increasing the enjoyment of our careers doesn’t just create a better individual experience, but that there are studies that show happiness drives higher incomes as well. Listen in as we discuss LaLonde’s seven-step journey of what she calls true self stops on how we explore what makes us happy and define our true values and ensure that they align with our career.
Listen on mobile platforms: Apple Podcasts | Overcast | Spotify
We may be getting a little bit closer to FREE PACER. Twenty legal tech leaders encouraged Congress to take up the issue, and in fact, the US House passed a bill bringing PACER out from the paywall this week. We’ll have to see if it goes any further this year, or if we have to wait until 2021 to see further movement.
In Jordon Furlong’s blog post, The End of Serendipity, he points out that law firms have for too long relied upon part-time leadership, culture through osmosis, and professional development through serendipity. While law firms may have accidentally succeeded in the past through happenstance and accident, he suggests that modern law firms succeed through specific planning and defined purpose.
It turns out you don’t have to be the focus of a Wall Street Journal article to get one of those nice WSJ images made. Now WSJ subscribers can take a headshot and make their own images.
Marlene is still hoping for some video aspects of the podcast. Greg, however, still has the face for podcasting. This week, she is checking out WeVideo, and was looking to improve her video editing skills. It turns out that you can get experts to teach you how to improve your skills in just about anything these days. A couple of good starting points for finding anything from a basketball coach, video editing teacher, or even another language are sites like Fiverr or Bark.
Listen, Subscribe, Comment
Please take the time to rate and review us on Apple Podcast. Contact us anytime by tweeting us at @gebauerm or @glambert. Or, you can call The Geek in Review hotline at 713-487-7270 and leave us a message. You can email us at firstname.lastname@example.org. As always, the great music you hear on the podcast is from Jerry David DeCicca.
Marlene Gebauer: Welcome to the Geek in Review. The podcast focused on innovative and creative ideas in the legal industry. I’m Marlene Gebauer.
Greg Lambert: And I’m Greg Lambert.
Marlene Gebauer: Well, December seems to be the month for book launches and books make great gifts for your colleagues. We’re speaking with Tracy LaLonde today about her new book, The Joychiever Journey, which I downloaded last night. I can’t wait to dive into that. On that note, now, let’s get to this week’s information inspirations.
Greg Lambert: Marlene, you know, we haven’t talked about in a while?
Marlene Gebauer: What’s that Greg?
Greg Lambert: Free PACER!!
Marlene Gebauer: Free PACER!!
Greg Lambert: Well, this week, 20 leaders of legal technology, businesses and organizations, were signatories to a letter to House Speaker Nancy Pelosi advising her on what it would mean to the industry and for the country as a whole to drop the paywall to Pacer. So we had former guests like Ed Walters from Fastcase, and Pablo Arredondo from CaseText, they were both on the list for pressing for a free Pacer
Marlene Gebauer: Free Pacer.
Greg Lambert: So they were writing in favor of HR at 8234 for the open courts act of 2020. Now, I can’t imagine this bill getting passed during the lame duck session. But perhaps with a new Congress and a new presidential administration, we can get some agreement on what to do to improve access to Pacer. Now, I did see this morning that it did pass the House. But there’s some serious doubt whether or not it’s even going to be brought up in the Senate this year. But it again, is a good indication that a similar bill may have a much greater chance of passing in 2021. So let’s see how it goes.
Marlene Gebauer: Yeah, well, first, you stole my inspiration, because I saw Gavalytics also got on board with this too.
Greg Lambert: You know, you got to get your notes in faster.
Marlene Gebauer: Apparently, I do, like you beat me to it. So I’m glad that members of the industry are still focused and pushing for this sort of legislation. And I’m glad members of the industry are still focused and pushing for this sort of legislation and that the passion for access to justice is still alive. So my new inspiration is about some tough talk about change management. Well, I think Jordan Furlong nails it. COVID requires firms to deal with some things and it might not be comfortable for some of them. What I took away from this is first, firms need to deliberate plan for attorney development. No more serendipitous popping into offices to chat and to get advice and work. Second, firms need to legitimize management leadership as a standalone role. This has two parts. First, give your professional staff the responsibility for business decisions. And second, don’t make attorneys and leadership roles choose between practicing and leading. Anyone who drives projects and manages people can tell you it’s a full time job. And lastly, clarify purpose and value beyond revenue and client satisfaction and hold everyone to that standard. Because let’s be honest, every successful firms purpose includes revenue and client satisfaction. They wouldn’t be successful if they didn’t. Firms need to focus on a few core values that distinguish them from the pack and practice them privately, publicly, and consistently.
Greg Lambert: Yeah, I like the title of Jordan’s article The End of Serendipity.
Marlene Gebauer: Right.
Greg Lambert: And one of the things he said in it was about culture, and that we’ve kind of just dumb lucked our way into culture rather than have any type of consistent path that we were taking. And so I thought the title was pretty good for the topic.
Agreed. Agreed was a really good piece.
Greg Lambert: Marlene, if you are a subscriber to The Wall Street Journal, there’s this cool offering that they’re doing right now.
Marlene Gebauer: Oh, yeah. Okay.
Greg Lambert: You know how the Wall Street Journal has these very distinguished ways of creating images of people in their articles.
Marlene Gebauer: Yep, they’re very pixelated.
Greg Lambert: Well, they have this AI tool that you can take a picture And submit it and it turns it into one of those images. So it’s really fun to play with. I think that you do have to be a subscriber to use the tool, but I’m pretty sure you can probably find someone who’s a subscriber and ask them for a favor. So if you’re nice…
Marlene Gebauer: Yeah. As soon as I send a high quality photo I’ll be asking you for a favor.
Greg Lambert: So one of the caveats to this, however, is that while it does very well, it converting headshots of people, mostly head and shoulders shots, I found out it struggles with photos of animals
Marlene Gebauer: You found out? I you know I’m afraid to ask.
Greg Lambert: Yeah. Actually, it was something that Sarah Glassmeyer had told me how they how they actually created a picture of Grumpy Cat. And one of those, so I went and I tried another animal and what it does is it will actually cut the ears off of the dogs or cats. So
Marlene Gebauer: well, that’s just cruel.
Greg Lambert: It is, isn’t it?
Marlene Gebauer: It is.
Greg Lambert: So you know, just in case anyone else out there is thinking of doing a Wall Street Journal profile of, you know, scruffy.
Marlene Gebauer: So I have some quick and cool tech and education comments. My son and I were talking about vlogs the other day, and well, actually, he was asking me why I don’t try to make money from the podcast. And then we pivoted to vlogs. So Greg knows I’ve been pushing the video idea for a while. So I was really excited when my son told me about a free product called WeVideo. You can record upload, recordings, edit and publish all in one spot. It’s pretty easy to use, I was able to add some music to my video and adjust the volume on that track. Now I’m working on actually editing the video next. I can see a lot of good business uses for this even outside the podcast. So even if Greg wants to hide behind the mic a little longer. I think I still might try it out. Okay, well, the education part of my inspiration comes from the fact that you can get someone to teach you just about anything online nowadays. So if you have some time, check out Fiverr or Bark or other freelance platforms where people sell services to teach you what they know. There’s a guy on Fiverr who will customize tutoring for you on Zoom or Skype about machine learning for $50 an hour. There are people who will teach you advanced Excel or teach you Spanish. I even hired a basketball coach for my son this way back when you can do this face to face. So if you want something a little more personal than YouTube videos, this solution could be for you. I personally know that I will like this because I can ask questions real time if I get stuck.
Greg Lambert: Alright Marlene, Well, that’s it for this week’s information inspirations.
Marlene Gebauer: When you describe the life of someone in the legal industry, whether it’s an attorney or an allied professional, the word joy isn’t always on the top of the descriptors.
Greg Lambert: It’s not second either.
Marlene Gebauer: That’s right. We are achievers. And the idea of joy is something that seems to be foreign to most of us in this field. Today’s guest asks, Why do achievement and joy have to be mutually exclusive? Well, let’s find out more.
Marlene Gebauer: Tracy LaLonde is the author of the newly released book, The Joychiever Journey: Evade Burnout, Surpass Your Goals, and Out-Happy Everyone , which just came out on December 1. Tracy, thank you for joining us on the Geek in Review.
Tracy LaLonde: Thanks so much. I’m glad to be here.
Marlene Gebauer: Well, Tracy, before we dive into the book, I wanted to talk a little bit about your background that led to the writing of this book. So you spent a number of years working with law firms around professional development and skills training. And I know a number of people that you worked with at your previous outfit Akina, including those that have worked with me on my own professional development. So how did you decide that professional development and skills training for lawyers and others in the legal industry was going to be your career?
Tracy LaLonde: That’s a funny question. In particularly the “decide” part. Was it really a strategic decision? I have to say if you’d asked me growing up what I was going to be doing later in life, I would have never guessed it was helping lawyers develop skills.
Greg Lambert: No one wants a career.
Marlene Gebauer: That’s why you’re like, isn’t that a career?
Tracy LaLonde: Who knew? But how it came to be was in the 90s, I actually worked in the high tech consulting space, teaching computer programmers how to be consultants. Then it was the Dot Com boom. And so I became part of that and was part of a dot com company that didn’t go IPO and didn’t get bought by some fabulous company. So needless to say, I didn’t get rich.
Marlene Gebauer: Not yet!
Tracy LaLonde: yeah, not yet. So right. It’s the power of yet right. But was was meeting something after after that, and happened to reply to an ad for a law firm that was needing a first ever professional development professional, and I got hired. And so that’s really how it started was more out of need and kind of out of luck, because most people it requires knowing somebody to get a job these days, not necessarily responding to the straight out ad on on SHRM, which is how it happened. So that’s what started the journey 20 years ago, and ended up working that three different law firms. And then Akina as you mentioned, and then launched my own business later on.
Marlene Gebauer: Well, I know many of us in the industry think that we’re unique, you know, we’re definitely snowflakes in our abilities and needs. Do you find that to be true?
Tracy LaLonde: Well, you know, the, the definite answer is ‘yes’, because that’s what everybody wants to hear. And so I think whether we’re truly unique or not, we all want to believe that we’re unique and special. That said, I do think that the legal industry and lawyers and those of us who work with lawyers and professional capacities, certainly has unique characteristics. As far as you know, client demand skill sets required the intensity of the work, the pace of the demands of the work, I think are maybe not unique to everybody else, but certainly part of their own in this profession.
Marlene Gebauer: Do you think there are certain things within the industry that truly are unique? Or do you think that it’s just the way that we look at it?
Marlene Gebauer: sort of like special to our industry?
Tracy LaLonde: Yeah, I think are characteristics that probably other industry share, ie, really smart people, servicing clients, having a really high bar for the kind of service and expertise that are required of clients, things like that. But I think the puzzle pieces get put together in its own way in the legal industry, as compared to say, the medical field or, you know, the high tech field or other scientific fields where it’s an expert model. And so I think the legal industry does have its prioritization of those things. And the way the puzzle pieces are put together to make the legal industry its own.
Marlene Gebauer: Now, the book, Joychievers is a variation on the word overachiever, explain what the title is conveying about the book itself. And the reason behind you wanting to write it.
Tracy LaLonde: Well, you know, I find and this relates to some of the puzzle pieces thought is that in the legal industry, in particular, the focus is on achieving. And even the way that lawyers move up the ladder is all about moving up the ladder. So you progress as a class, you know, to the next level, the next level in the next level. So it was always this upward trajectory. Now, that’s not dissimilar to lots of other industries. But and even for myself, but there is this high, intense or highly intense focus on achievement. And it creates exhaustion, burnout, depression. And while you know, I’m not a lawyer, I’m also a high achiever. And I’ve also been caught up in that industry for 20 years. You know, for me personally, and especially after I left working in law firms and was working, as you mentioned, with the Akina and some other businesses, the goal is to advance and to keep growing the business and to keep working and working really hard. And so I found that with that emphasis on achievement, that the concept of joy gets left behind. And so I really have been focusing on why does achievement and joy have to be mutually exclusive? Is there a way that we can live our lives to have both of those things simultaneously. And for me, personally, I hit a breaking point in 2016, I had been on the road for 40 weeks, a year, often three cities a week, five to nine airplanes in a week, my hair was thinning, I was having heart palpitations, I was constantly thinking about work, you know, that was it was just full on. And on its surface, or from the outside, I seemed really successful to people. And that I had it all together. But on the inside, I really didn’t. And because I then was also having some health issues, I finally just said, timeout, you know, I’m not gonna die wishing that I worked more. I’ve got to figure this out. Because I love the work. I love my clients. I love the substance of what I was doing. But the lifestyle is killing me. And so I left my company, and took eight months off to do that deep self-exploration. And it was in that time, and at the time, I called it my own just joy journey. But it was in that time that started my path on this Joychiever Journey, and how can we have both success and joy? At the same time?
Marlene Gebauer: Yeah, I just want to point out that like, while you’re while you’ve been talking about this, Greg and I are both like nodding our heads, like, Uh huh. So you know, this, this, this is not something that’s unique to people that that in the industry, I mean, we you know, we’ve all, we’ve all been there, at least in part.
Tracy LaLonde: Yeah. And the other thing I find that we do is we also postpone it. We fall prey to what I call the “Once I” syndrome. You know, once I get to a certain level in the business, once I get the kids to school, once I retired, then I can have a good time,
Marlene Gebauer: then I can have fun, right?
Tracy LaLonde: Yeah! As cliché as it sounds, we really only have one life. And so why are we waiting? Why are we waiting to have fun? So I want us to have fun sooner.
Greg Lambert: One of the things that we see with the especially with the legal industry, and I will say specifically with law firms, is there’s a certain trajectory that you need to be on in order to be successful. to achieve. And almost always, if you fall off of that path, it’s almost seen as failure. It’s not like you’re taking a different path. It’s, you know, I’m a failed lawyer if I take this other path. And so do you see that as one of the reasons that we want to postpone the joys because we think if we don’t stick to this lockstep of progression in our industry, that we’ll be failures. And if we’re failures, then obviously we can’t find joy in that.
Marlene Gebauer: And I will add to that, like behaviors, you know, there’s certain types of behaviors that are expected. And again, if you go outside of that box, then you may not be viewed as successful or as you know, someone who’s going to advance. And so people may like people may not bring their. How is it? People may not bring their authentic selves to work. Because of that,
Tracy LaLonde: I wholeheartedly agree. And I think that is one of the unique challenges that the legal industry has is that there are, some would say there’s only one model for lawyers to be successful, instead of having multiple models. And I know that, you know, a lot of the diversity, the D&I efforts have been working towards creating other alternative paths that can be viewed as equally successful and not, you know, the ugly stepchild path. I do think that was that kind of focus of only one way to be successful that that does create all kinds of issues and challenges for people to be successful and not burnout. Yeah, we’ve
Greg Lambert: talked on the show before. And I can think specifically talking with Olga Mack, who mentioned that when we talk about legal careers, it’s not unusual to make these parallels to addiction, such as we are workaholics or that we are recovering lawyers. So how do you address these types of parallels in your book?
Tracy LaLonde: They’re very similar. In that, you know, the notion of having a good work ethic is thrown around all the time. And we tie it to like moral value, you know, that if you don’t have a good work ethic, you’re somehow lesser human being. And to the extent that that’s motivating that’s fine, but when it gets past motivating, that’s when it’s really dangerous, and really difficult. And I think, in particular, 2020 and the need to work remotely, it turned this whole thing upside down. And I’m thrilled for that. Because work ethic in the traditional law firm is often demonstrated by face time. So it’s being in the office and being in the office, being available.
Marlene Gebauer: Face time and hours, you know?
Tracy LaLonde: Right, exactly, instead of results. And it’s really interesting, because there are statistics out there that show that happiness drives higher income than level of education. Which is mind numbing.
Marlene Gebauer: Really? Wow!
Tracy LaLonde: Yes. Which isn’t surprising when you hear about, you know, profitability and happiness, you know, happy employees create higher profits, because they’re happy at work, therefore, they make customers or clients happier, therefore, people want to buy more, you know, it’s just a snowball effect. And I think we struggle with this in the legal industry in a real big way, which is why we have one of the highest depression rates of any professional sector.
Greg Lambert: Are they happy because they’re appreciated? And there’s some result from that? Or is it just what we normally think of is happy, you know, they show up happy?
Tracy LaLonde: Yes, I think there’s, there’s definitely the appreciation and but there’s also the flexibility of having a full life. And that’s what the Joychiever Journey really talks about is one of the major reasons that I think folks, generally, whether you’re a lawyer or anything else isn’t happier is because we don’t have a deep enough understanding of self. So we don’t truly know what makes us tick, to be able to even choose for joy, because I believe that joy is a proactive, intentional daily choice. So the Joychiever Journey walks folks through seven what I call true self stops. So for you know, if life is this journey, and we’re on a road trip, we’ve got to stop along the way to rest and refuel, and, you know, eat and things like that. So these true self stops are those moments where we can really do some deep exploration, to really find out what makes us happy such that, you know, lawyers, they’ve got this career, they’ve invested a lot of energy, time and money to be an expert in a particular area. And, you know, what’s the rest of it, so that they can have both. So for example, you’re one of the stops is Values Village. And it stresses the importance that individuals get clear enough, so they can even list you know, their top five to ten values. And so if growth is one of those values, then that works for a lawyer because they’re constantly growing and growing and growing in order to be more and more successful. And but I’ve seen lots of lawyers whose values just don’t align with being a lawyer. It’s just a mismatch. But without that kind of clarity as an example, then then they’re just continuing to check off the list and pursuing being a great lawyer without having the well-rounded life.
Marlene Gebauer: Now you touched on 2020 is sort of having an impact on things. So, you know, at some point, we’ll be beyond the immediacy of the current pandemic, and we’ll be trying to reacclimate ourselves back into a routine, you know, whatever that means. Now, do you have concerns about lawyers and others of us in the industry getting back into old bad habits? I know I do. And what are some of the things that you would suggest that we reevaluate before we begin to transition to the next work routine post-COVID?
Tracy LaLonde: Yeah, I think I think 2020 has been a really interesting growth experience for everybody. And in some ways, it’s positive because folks no longer have multi hour commutes. So seemingly, they have additional time. And I’ve heard folks say, wow, I actually get to exercise or I get more time with my family, or I can do yoga in the morning or read that book or work on that passion project in the evenings. Conversely, I’ve seen it also being really difficult for people, because they go from bed to desk. And so they’re not leveraging that newfound free time to actually do other things other than work. So that’s one challenge. And then two, with children and parents, it children not being in school and elderly parents maybe need needing more care. So that’s been a real struggle for folks in 2020, where some folks can’t wait to get back to the office so that they can have all their childcare routines back in place, some room to breathe. But I do worry about for those who have actually been introspective and have had and or spent the time developing those new habits, ie exercising, spending that some of the family taking the dog for a walk, with letting themselves stopped the chronic push of cortisol and adrenaline as a result of stress, I found that they’d been much happier. And that is my wish, is that once we get back to whatever the next normal is, is that folks will proactively carve out that time, now that they’ve realized some of the benefits of happening to have that time. That’s my dream, rather, instead of going back to the long commutes, and all work and no play idea.
Marlene Gebauer: But what about those people? And you know, I wonder if it’s a lot of people in this profession, like they, they need that routine, like they need that routine, you know, just sort of keep themselves on track, they’re not a person who’s going to say, Okay, I’m going to go explore and read that book and do the passion project. Because I got a, I got to kind of just stick to this. And of course, 2020 has just thrown that all up in the air. And even when it all comes down, it’s not going to be like that anymore. So what advice do we offer for folks like that, who are just very stressed out about not having that?
Tracy LaLonde: Yeah, I think it’s, it’s, I want to encourage people to find a routine, a new routine within the old routine, for example. So mindfulness and meditation, in particular legal industry, is something I talked about lots of people talking about that for a while. But to use that as an example, that you can do have a mindfulness practice that takes 15 minutes. And so if you’re on the train, riding into work, instead of doing email, money, meditate for 15 minutes? It doesn’t have to be a full stop shift. It’s just within the larger routine, let’s create subroutines. Instead of taking the elevator to your meeting, take the steps, then at least you get some movement of your body, you know, get a little bit of exercise. Instead of taking the subway or your car to a meeting, maybe walk down the block instead. So I want to I want to encourage folks to just baby step, on working some new routines into the old routine.
Greg Lambert: So Tracy, now that you have your own consulting company, Joychievers where you “help high performers find joy, develop business and speak authentically”, as many are needing to pivot due to job loss as a result of COVID-19. How do you think running your own shop can be a joyful experience?
Tracy LaLonde: Well, for me, personally, I like to build stuff. Curiosity is my third value. And curiosity comes in the form of learning, growing, building, creating. And so that’s what Joychiever is all about, is it’s in the spirit of helping others. But for me, personally, it is about doing that for myself, and also just having destiny in my own hands. That’s very motivating for me. And so I’m thrilled to be able to do that in the service of others, finding more joy, and helping them to be successful simultaneously.
Greg Lambert: Great.
Marlene Gebauer: Yeah, I mean, I think it’s important because again, a lot of people are going to have to figure out something else than what they were used to. And, you know, as you can imagine, that’s, that’s stressful for many. So they’re going to need a way to basically, you know, get themselves comfortable with this and feel good about whatever it is, is their, you know, their next step in the journey.
Tracy LaLonde: Well, and I think too, it’s about encouraging people to be really open-minded. So if I were to talk to somebody right now, today, and this is how do you do this, I would say number one, get really clear about your values. And then number two, get really clear about your strengths, and what you’re good at, and what brings you the most joy. And there’s a couple things at play there. It’s not only what you’re good at, but it’s what brings you the most joy because there’s lots of things that I’m good at that I really don’t need to do every day or don’t want to do every day.
Marlene Gebauer: I’m really good. I’m really good at doing the dishes, you know, but I don’t want to do that every day, either.
Tracy LaLonde: Exactly, exactly. And then coupled with that strength, though, also is context and meaning. So you recognize a strength, which by the way looks like you get completely lost in time, it’s super easy to do you get into the flow, you know those kinds of characteristics. And then be paying attention to which context add to that joy. So as an example, public speaking is always been a really big strength of mine. But I have more joy when I’m in a context where people are really engaged, and they’re asking questions, and they’re even disagreeing with me, like, they’re really trying to get into it, as compared to an audience that just listened. So I’ll never be, you know, a professor ever. And that’s one way that public speaking could have gone. But professors expect people just kind of sit and listen, take notes. I’m generalizing, I realized, but that’s, that’s not the kind of public speaking I want to do. And so getting clear around that, you know, and also the meaning part of it, like, I really like helping people be the best versions of themselves. That really motivates me that gives meaning to my life. And so with values and getting clear about strengths, I think folks can then really look at the full world and say, Where can I do this? You know, what, what context, meaning working at a law firm working at another company, working on your own working in a small business, working with your family, I mean, there’s lots of forms that that making money can take, but really paying attention to the values, the strength, the context, and the meaning, I think will help people maybe get clear about what’s most beneficial for them. And then the where they do it. I mean, this opens the blue ocean kind of idea.
Greg Lambert: Well, Tracy, I know your book just came out the first of December. Where can we find your book? And where can we learn more about you?
Tracy LaLonde: Yeah, the book itself, you can get on Amazon in particular, it’s also Barnes and Noble, and another a number of other retailers. But check out my website, Joychiever.com. It has links to all of the retailers but also there on the resources page are a number of downloadable tools that accompany the book. So there’s a lot of work to be done, because otherwise people aren’t. It’s not the kind of book where your reader like, I’m happy. Whoo, sing Pharrell’s song, you know, because I’m happy. That’s not the kind of work. But there’s work to be done in order to explore. So all of those materials are also on the website. And then my contact information is there, but it’s super easy. It’s Tracy@joychiever.com. if folks want reach out to me directly.
Greg Lambert: Great. Well, Tracy, thank you very much for taking the time to talk to us.
Marlene Gebauer: Yes, thank you, Tracy. This has been great.
Tracy LaLonde: Thank you. I appreciate it.
Greg Lambert: You know, Marlene, I think this may have been the first interview we’ve done where we may have talked more with the guest after the recording than we did during the recording.
Marlene Gebauer: That’s true.
Greg Lambert: It was a real pleasure talking with Tracy about her book and about life working in the legal industry.
Marlene Gebauer: Yeah, I appreciate that. Tracy is looking at this as a project and a practice for those who might score not so high on the touchy feely scale. And she has exercises that are companion pieces to the book itself. So if it helps you to envision this more as an assignment, there you go.
Greg Lambert: Yeah. So Tracy’s book is available now. We’ll make sure that we put the links on the show notes.
Marlene Gebauer: Yep, go on and buy it.
Greg Lambert: Alright, so once again, thanks to Tracy LaLonde for joining us today.
Marlene Gebauer: Before we go, we want to remind listeners to take time to subscribe on Apple podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts, rate and review us as well. If you have comments about today’s show, or suggestions for a future show, you can reach us on Twitter at at @gebauerm or at @glambert, or you can call the Geek in Review hotline at 713-487-7270 or email us at email@example.com And as always, the music you hear is from Jerry David DeCicca. Thank you, Jerry.
Greg Lambert: Thanks, Jerry. All right, Marlene, I will talk with you later.
Marlene Gebauer: Okay, bye bye.