We all know that the hybrid workplace is coming to our law firms. That is, where some lawyers are working every day from their office spaces, while others continue to work remotely. Many believe that this will be the permanent workplace of the future, and there is a Pollyannish attitude from some in the industry who think that the past seven months prove that we can do as much remotely, as we can from the office. Richard Hsu of the recruiting firm Lindsey, Major, and Africa is not one of them.
While Hsu understands that there is a paradigm shift in how legal services are provided to clients and that having a swanky office in a high-rent downtown district is not required for top-notch services, young attorneys need structure in their training and experiences. That upbringing of the next generation of talent cannot take place effectively in a remote environment. The current situation, where nearly all of the attorneys are working remotely is giving us a false sense of security that we can continue this success in a hybrid model. Hsu thinks that it will actually be the hybrid model that will accelerate the desire to get all of the lawyers, by and large, back to the office full time.
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Jerry David DeCicca, who provides the fantastic music you hear on this podcast, has a new album coming out on October 16th. Go check out The Accidental Optimist and His Domestic Adventures on Spotify or Bandcamp.
The legal tech industry is not lacking for tools, but it has lacked for a good method of finding the right tool for the right task. Nikki Shaver and Chris Ford talked with Bob Ambrogi about how they created a resource to help solve that problem. The LegalTech Hub is a searchable database of legal technology resources which allows customers to search for the tools they need, as well as developers and vendors to put their resource information on the site for free.
Today’s guest isn’t the only one who seems to think that remote work isn’t the best method. A Wall Street Journal article mentions that many business leaders also think that even a hybrid work model isn’t sustainable. Marlene has a few thoughts on why those leaders are being too narrow in their thoughts on the work model which may be around for years.
One other “feature” of the current work model is the need to work while wearing a mask. Harvard Business Review has a number of suggestions on how to make your work environment function clearly, even when your voice is muffled.
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Marlene Gebauer: Welcome to the Geek in Review. The podcast focused on innovative and creative ideas in the legal industry. I’m Marlene Gebauer.
Greg Lambert: And I’m Greg Lambert. So Marlene, before we get too far into the show, I wanted to state that I think that we have the best music of any podcast out there.
Marlene Gebauer: I would have to agree with that.
Greg Lambert: So it’s great having Jerry David DeCicca’s music on the show. And what’s really cool is that Jerry is releasing a brand new album tomorrow, called the Unlikely Optimist and His Domestic Adventures. Doesn’t Yeah, that’s a mouthful. So as an added bonus, my fellow legal information professional and Jackson Walker research attorney Eve Searls is a major collaborator on the album, and she’s playing the Oregon and she’s singing on a number of the song. So if you like the music that you hear, go check out Jerry’s Spotify page and his boot camp site for more information, and how to buy and download the music. So the Unlikely Optimist is available starting Friday, October 16.
Marlene Gebauer: I can’t wait to hear it.
Greg Lambert: Alright, so off from the music and let’s get on to this week’s information inspirations.
Greg Lambert: So Marlene, one of the things that I tell attorneys and others in my own firm is that we usually don’t lack for resources here. But what we lack for is knowing which resource to use at the right time. And I don’t think that that’s necessarily a concept that’s limited to me and my firm. You know, we have all kinds of great resources for the legal industry. But what we lack is a way to find what resources work best for individual needs. So a friend of ours, Nikki Shaver, from Paul Hastings, along with her spouse, Chris Ford, from the legal tech companies Zero, have created an online research tool called legal tech hub. And this categorizes and list resources available in the legal tech market. And Bob Ambrogi has a great overview of the product on his last site blog, and some of the background on why Nikki and Chris built the product. And one of the nice things about legal tech hub is that you can not only search for products as a consumer of legal tech, but if you are a developer of a product or a vendor, they have where you can actually put your product on the site for free.
Marlene Gebauer: Yeah, I saw this this post. And so I was really excited about it. And you know, again, I mean, it is free, it is free to search and it’s free to post.
Greg Lambert: And you know, we like free, and
Marlene Gebauer: we we love, we love for the love free. We love it. So our podcast today is about remote versus in person working conditions. What I’ve been hearing is more of a continued work environment or a hybrid model. And while there are certainly exceptions based on type of work, workers are seem to be very accepting and maybe even a little happy about that sort of arrangement. However, a recent Wall Street Journal article, you know, just had to dampen the mood.
Greg Lambert: Now, this is the Wall Street Journal. So you know, it was pro business,
Marlene Gebauer: As it does, and says companies are thinking that work from home isn’t really so great. So they mentioned that projects are taking longer and training is tougher. You know, we’re going to be covering some of this actually, in the actual podcast today. Hiring and integrating new employees is more complicated. Some employers say their workers appeared less connected and bosses fear young professionals aren’t developing at the same rate as they would in offices sitting next to colleagues and absorbing how they do their jobs. And you know, one benefit of working face to face is that we’re missing a spontaneous interaction moment. So being able to have those conversations that won’t happen on a Zoom call. So you know, the executives are starting to say, well, this might not be sustainable. And, you know, I agree with some of the arguments. I don’t think projects take longer across the board. And I’ve actually seen projects move more quickly with things like daily Scrum meetings and chats. And you know, spontaneous interaction is definitely harder, but not impossible. What I really wonder is whether executives are up to the challenge of taking a new look at how workflow should operate in our new normal and making that change or if it’s just easier for everybody to fall back onto old patterns.
Greg Lambert: Probably easier to fall back on old patterns. Marlene my my last inspiration may actually be more of a desperation than an inspiration. So it’s been the experiences that I’ve had over the past few weeks. So I’ve gone to an number of online conferences recently, right now I think it’s day two for for the Clio conference. Last week, I was at the college of law practice management conference, I was at a local law library meeting today. So there’s, there’s a lot going on, it’s good content that’s out there. And I have to tell you, I struggle to focus on on the content that was made available. And I paid for these conferences. So it’s not like, you know, these are free conferences. And, and it’s not a big deal if I, if I skip out on them. But one of the things I could do is, I could go back and look at the video, the videos, rewatch some of the sessions, or watch some of the sessions that were recorded. But you know, between you and me, I’m not gonna do that,
Marlene Gebauer: you and me and the rest of the people that are listening,
Greg Lambert: Don’t tell them. So, within speaking of the other people that are listening, what I’d like to do is reach out to the listeners and see if someone has kind of figured this out. If you kind of know what you’re doing to be able to commit time to these online conferences in a way that you’re able to focus and actually get some value from the content. Hit me up on Twitter at @glambert, tell me your strategy, or leave me a voicemail on our hotline at 713-487-7270. And help me out. Help me find a way to to make these more valuable than than what I’m getting.
Marlene Gebauer: So if we’re going back to the office, according to The Wall Street Journal, we’re going to have to get used to communicating and masks which you know, is really easier said than done. When you think about it. You’re muffled, your facial expressions are blocked, you know, we may have to train hours,
Greg Lambert: Which may not be a bad thing.
Marlene Gebauer: That might work in some people’s favor. So you know, but we really may have to train ourselves on a whole new way of communicating. Harvard Business Review had a great article the other day on how to build rapport with a mask on. And so I want to share a few of their suggestions. All right. Some of some of these are, you know, you’ve heard them before, some of them are a little amusing, but you know, let’s go through them. So, first of all, don’t wear a clear mask. Unless you’re communicating with a deaf person, it’s probably not a good idea. But honestly, it might not even be a good idea then because they probably cloud up and your breath condensation looks a little creepy.
Greg Lambert: Yes, it does.
Marlene Gebauer: Yes, it does. Practice your mask voice. And you know, I read this and I thought this may be one situation where speaking loudly really does make you better understood. So when practicing your mask voice, you should pause. So normally visual cues of the mouth help us see when a speaker is pausing for a response. And since we can’t see that now, make a conscious effort to pause here and there to give people opportunities to jump in and respond. And it also breaks up your message into digestible chunks. So you accentuate so you avoid being boring by accentuating key phrases and information. But don’t always accentuated in the same way. You know, you use different intonations like you would normally.
Marlene Gebauer: Volume as I mentioned before, masks have a slightly muffling effect slightly, so Speak up, but you know, don’t yell. And emotion. You know, inappropriate moments. Try and make your voice more expressive by conveying positive emotions like excitement, awe, gratitude, and sympathy. You know, but do this in moderation. Otherwise, you sound like you’re acting. Use gestures and body language and I’m just gonna leave that there. And speaking of gestures, and body language mirror what your counterpart does and that is supposed to build rapport. Smile with your eyes, which you know, I think we’ve all…
Greg Lambert: SMIZE!
Marlene Gebauer: Smize, we’ve all heard about that. And and keep the two T’s aligned and the T’s are toes and torso. So face who you’re speaking with and don’t turn like you want to run away, even though you might want to run away. And that wraps up this week’s information inspirations.
Greg Lambert: So Richard Hsu and I go back all the way back to our King and Spalding days. But nowadays, he’s working on the recruiting side of the legal industry. And he has some really interesting ideas of why the workplace model facing law firms might be more of a struggle than we’re anticipating.
Greg Lambert: We’re now exactly seven months into the pandemic here in the United States. And for many in the legal industry, it’s been about that same amount of time since they’ve actually worked side by side with their fellow lawyers and legal professionals. So we asked Richard Hsu, managing director and Major Lindsey & Africa to come in and talk with us, give us his perspective on what the law firm office may look like, once this pandemic is over.
Marlene Gebauer: Richard, thanks for taking the time to talk with us.
Richard Hsu: Marlene, it’s always been a pleasure. I’ve known Greg for many, many years. And it’s always good to be invited to speak on his podcast.
Marlene Gebauer: Well, we’ve heard a lot of projections on what the new work environment will look like after the pandemic. What do you think will happen once we’re allowed to fully reoccupied our physical offices?
Richard Hsu: Right. Well, you know, look, a lot of stuff has been written about all the things that are missing in a remote office and stuff has been written about, you know, the casual interactions, the culture, the discussions at the watercooler, you know, a lot of the micro interactions that happen that are very, very important in having a collegial and important workforce things, you know, the conversations that happen, you know, in the hallways, or, you know, in the elevator, you’re passing somebody by. And I think all those are really true, and I don’t, I’m not here to, you know, diminish any of those points. But a lot of people are wondering that they’re fundamentally, lawyers, in particular, and I’ll draw upon my own experience of having been a practicing lawyer about whether lawyers can work effectively remotely. And my personal opinion is, is that once the pandemic is over, lawyers will largely, by and large, go back to the work office. Now, I say this for a couple of reasons. I’m one of them, which is very funny to the lawyers actually learn things and the way lawyers actually, if you look, if you look at the legal profession, the legal profession is actually more like an apprenticeship. And if you think about kind of how I look at myself, when I look at how I learned things as a lawyer, most of what I learned, or how I learned was by watching and observing, and basically mimicking what senior and more experienced lawyers do. And you can’t do that, I assume. So, for example, when I was a very new litigator, you know, how did I learn to take a deposition? Well, I watched somebody else do the deposition, I watched how he asked the questions and learn how to react and stuff. And by thinking about, for example, how did I learn to negotiate contracts on behalf of my clients, while I listened in on, you know, client calls, and I watched how they observed and interacted and so so much of being a lawyer is watching and learning. And you it’s very hard to do that on zoom calls, because you’ll get an opportunity to observe them, you know, in a more broad sense, it has to be a very specific interaction. So I really believe that once the pandemic is over, and people can go back to the office that will become very important, essentially, for that reason.
Marlene Gebauer: So you’re talking about how it’s difficult to interact with within zoom meetings, and I completely understand that, but but you know, what about things like team spaces where, you know, basically, everybody not only can see one another, but are sharing documents or working on documents together, are getting feedback, you know, in some of these type of huddle meetings? What sort of future does that have?
Richard Hsu: Mm hmm. Well, I’m glad you asked that, because I think and again, this is a problem, you know, slightly contrary, but part of the reason why those things kind of work now is because everybody is remote. And so it’s sort of a levels, the playing field. So if all of the certain videos and all of us are using doc share whatever, did Microsoft Teams and so forth, it sort of works. But the real problem will be is that once the office opens back up, and some people start going back, then the hybrid model, I think we’re actually accelerate people to start going back in the office, because what’s going to happen is those people that remain offsite are going to feel like second class citizens. They’re going to feel like they’re at a real disadvantage, because they can’t communicate as clearly. And they’re not going to be able to communicate as clearly as the people there in the office. So I’m not saying that the things that you’ve talked about the technology doesn’t work. I think the only really work if everybody’s first remote. And once people can go back to the office has been people start doing it. And I think people will find the need, and the frequency of doing that in order to really, you know, stay effective.
Greg Lambert: Yeah, I’m wondering, Richard, do you think there are some lawyers out there who truly believe that they will never go back and have have a permanent office in a physical space again, even if their co workers go back?
Richard Hsu: Well, there definitely are. I mean, they’re definitely are depending on you know, I should obviously id that certain types of practices, which are just, you know, if, for example, you completely work alone in your practices, you know, it’s a complete solo practice, and you don’t have the need to interact with people. You don’t have the need to work with, you know, people in a group or a team, or you’re certainly not training any Junior lawyers or working with them. You know, I think both people and even before the pandemic, there were always lawyers that I mean, there have been lawyers that work as solo practitioners always from home and never have been in the office. So, you know, those who will continue to exist for sure. But I think for, you know, certainly in big law where, you know, lawyers work as teams, and where lawyers use lots of associates, it’s important for always to be grooming Junior lawyers.
Greg Lambert: You live in San Francisco, and you’ve worked in Silicon Valley, and it is not cheap. living there. It is not cheap working there.
Marlene Gebauer: And the commute is terrible.
Greg Lambert: And so one of the one of the things that I think a lot of professionals, you know, and we’ll, we’ll stay with the legal profession, but you know, you know, there’s, there’s a lot of people in Silicon Valley that are, you know, that are smacking their lips, trying to figure out if they can go buy that ranch in Montana. And you know, as long as they get a solid internet connection can can work from there. And I think even Facebook is saying, Yeah, you can work wherever you want, you get paid whatever the local rates are for that area. But if you want to move to Montana and get Montana pay, we can do that. Can we do something like that in legal?
Richard Hsu: Well, that’s, that’s the thing is, I really don’t think so. I really think that what will happen, like I said, and it won’t happen right away, because right now, everybody’s remote. So it doesn’t matter whether you’re in San Francisco, or Montana. But I believe what’s going to happen is when when the office opens back up, and people start going back to work, the person that’s in Montana, is going to feel very much distance and is going to feel like a second class citizen. And it’s going to feel very disconnected from the people that are in the office. So really, the lot of problems I’m talking about are actually not happening right now, again, because everybody is remote, and so called hybrid model is starting to introduce people start come back to office, that’s when I think people will really notice it. And, you know, I know I’m drying my experience from obviously, having been a practicing lawyer for 25 years. But even when I think about my days, as an engineer, which I was before I went to law school, when I think about how I did most of my learning from as being an engineer, it was very much, you know, again, the same kind of watching and learning, learning from more experienced programmers and observing what they were doing. And, and again, those are really, really hard to do just over Zoom. I mean, again, a lot of those happen very spontaneously. Those are, those are very situational things that come up and you teach somebody, okay, this is how you do this here. And this is how you do that there. Those cannot be scheduled, those are very hard to learn in the classroom setting. So I think for all those reasons, I think it’s going to be really, really tough.
Marlene Gebauer: So do you think that there’s actually an expectation that there’s going to be a hybrid model? You know, that some stay at home and some, some work in the office? And how do you think this is going to play out with leadership of the firm when it comes to trusting that those they don’t see very often we’ve talked a little bit about how it’s important to learn to have have people together. But what about trust issues?
Richard Hsu: Well, I don’t know, honestly, at least in the law firm. I don’t see that as being an issue. Because I think, you know, lawyers, by and large, are very hard workers. And there’s, you know, there’s often deliverables of lawyers report, whether they’re drafting documents or writing briefs, or so I think there’s enough metric, so I don’t think trust issue is going to be there. And just feel like, you know, and I think hybrid model is going to be the way that law firms are going to initially, they’re going to, that’s how they’re going to try to accomplish this goal. They’re gonna tell me what I need the best, because for health reasons, or on a more permanent basis, they might try to say, you know, they will probably work. But I just, again, I just go back to the point that I think that that will be very unstable. And I just don’t see that really working.
Greg Lambert: I think you’re right, I think we’re probably going to roll into this hybrid model. And we might be there for a number of years. And so is this about setting expectation for leadership about how they’re going to work with remote workers? Are these going to be viewed as lesser value lawyers because they aren’t able to deliver the results that their counterparts will will be able to do? Because they are actually physically in the office?
Richard Hsu: Well, I mean, look, I think it’s remains to be seen how this will work. I mean, a couple things that strike me is, I mean, I believe, like I said, I don’t think the hybrid model is going to work. So one of two things kind of has to happen either, you kind of force everybody to all go back to being remote. I could see that as sort of one way of kind of releveling the playing field. In other words, which I know seems kind of awkward, but I could sort of see that as one possibility. The other possibility is that if the number of remote workers is relatively small, I think that can also be managed more effective at the end, in a specific individual, I don’t know how they’re going to feel about, you know, healing, again being more distance. But, you know, any even even pre pandemic, law firms typically had, you know, they’re always a handful of people that own room work remotely. And I think that can be kind of managed. But to have a team where half is remote and half is in the office for, you know, group for kind of kind of work where people need to work in groups, I think they’ll be very hard to manage. But I could see, for example, Greg, like one thing, but I think it’s totally possible is, for example, you’ve been on conference calls, where three people are in the office and three people are remote, and it’s almost impossible to go remote, or really participate. I mean, we know for a fact, everyone’s on zoom, that can kind of work. But if three people are on it, it just doesn’t work. So one possibility, for example, I can see this is your question. Like, for example, let’s say that three people are in the office, they insist that everybody participate in a meeting by computer, even if they’re in the office. So now I could see that work. I mean, it’s very artificial, and it seems silly, but I could see that facilitating, for example, a meeting, so at least they can be, of course, the thing that’s gonna happen is as soon as that meeting is over, in the office are gonna huddle together and talk all about it, you know, and so it kind of is over. But those are the kind of artificial things I could see, to kind of try to make the hybrid model work.
Marlene Gebauer: Do you think that there may be a difference of opinion when you’re talking generationally in terms of what the preference or comfort level will be? In terms of being remote? Or not being remote? You know, perhaps those are, who are who are more, you know, digital natives will be like, that’s, you know, that’s absolutely fine. I can I can learn this way. And it doesn’t bother me, but yet, you know, other people who are not may say, you know, I’m not comfortable with that.
Richard Hsu: Hmm. Well, it’s certainly possible. I mean, I definitely recognize the fact that I’m, you know, a, you know, a mid to late career lawyer. And so that definitely,
Marlene Gebauer: Ha, I did not imply that…
Richard Hsu: that’s definitely a possibility. I kind of feel like, you know, the things that human beings learned is not something that’s just happened over the last, you know, two generations, you know, if you learn, it’s kind of goes back to the human species works. And, you know, if you believe fundamentally, that we learn things by observing, and we learn things by mimicking, and I think it’s pretty much in our hardware, that’s not a software update that happened in the last 20-30 years, you know, I don’t think long term, it’s going to be very effective. And I think I could see, for example, a gap, if this goes on for a really long time, I can see a gap in expertise and training, for example, in young lawyers, where they never really learned a lot things that, you know, typically see. oh, you know, again, this all depends on how old the thing the pandemic goes for. But that’s, that’s my field.
Marlene Gebauer: And just for the record, I mean, I agree with that, that, that learning with somebody there, there’s just an ease of interaction that you don’t necessarily have when, when it’s, it’s when it’s digital.
Richard Hsu: And then when you think about yourself, and all the things, how you learn things, you know, especially in a professional environment, it was low, mainly, you know, interaction. It was silly for lawyers, when you think about how much you know, they think all the time, but you know, when you think about how much you lost, who helped you become a practicing lawyer, it’s usually very little, because the reality is most practicing lawyer is from those interactions that you learn, and watch and observe other lawyers, not from what you learn reading a book of contracts, you know, and so, I mean, something you think about, you know, and lawyers talk about this all the time how Law Students come out, and they don’t, they don’t know anything, at least know how to practice law. They know, you know, a lot of knowledge and legal knowledge. So that’s, that’s kind of where that’s my thinking,
Marlene Gebauer: this this sort of hybrid or, you know, completely remote sort of model. Is this going to, is this going to impact the thought in any way of, you know, outsourcing attorneys, do you think? Interesting?
Richard Hsu: Oh, in what way, like the fact that, like, they’ll that will increase the amount of outsourcing or?
Marlene Gebauer: Yeah, well, I mean, I will firms be more open to that idea, given the fact that that people, you know, they’re getting used to people working remotely, and you know, would that sort of open the door to more outsourced work?
Richard Hsu: Right, right. Using more independent contractors and that sort of thing. Is that what you’re talking about? Yeah. Probably, I would probably agree with that. I mean, law firms already started moving towards that whenever they need it. You know, you think a lot about e-discovery and things like that are a lot largely outsourced to non full time lawyers. So I could see that also being sort of a growing trend and feeling that they need to have those lawyers present. But again, I think those only tasks which you know, are going to be like e-discovery, which is more episodic, or things that, you know, very disk kind of project. But I think that anything is going to be very much involved in, like the core of a client’s needs. I, I’m not sure.
Greg Lambert: Richard, do you think that? I mean, you’re you’re in Silicon Valley area? Do you think that technology will eventually figure out ways to kind of bridge the gap for all of the things that it lacks? Now, you know, you talked about, you got to be in the room to really kind of see the body language to kind of see the emotion to hear the way that the sound is projecting, you know, from from different parts of the room to really get a feel for what’s going on. Is this a technology issue that that can be solved? Or is this a human issue that unless you’re in the room, you’re gonna lose out on? What do you what do you think?
Richard Hsu: Right? Well, that’s a very good question. I mean, I’m, I’m a bit of a technology fatalist. So I do believe that everything that can be invented ultimately, well, and so it does, I mean, a logical thing would be the thing that somebody picked out. So good, and so accurate, that you know, that you can essentially mimic it in the room. But, you know, we’re still pretty long way from there, probably. And so I certainly think at least in my lifetime, I don’t see that happening to a point where, you know, you can really replace being the room and even if the technology is so good that you can be in the room and then make it again, that that’s not that that’s not the real core of what I’m saying is that the thing about the watch and observing, I mean, that’s really the constant sort of being right there. Right. So this is not about whether when we are on the zoom call, it’s so good, that it’s like we’re being this room, it’s it’s the fact that you and I are in the office next door, you know, and constantly interacting in a way, you know, you have to be like, if your camera were on all day and my camera all day or something like that, you know, which is not so much about technologists, although, you know, clearly, if you if you have a meaningful Zoom call, you know how well that works?
Greg Lambert: Yeah, my answer is this. Eventually the Star Trek holodeck will just create that.
Richard Hsu: Ah, that’s certainly not in our lifetime. But you’re right.
Greg Lambert: Yeah. Well, well, let me let me wrap this up by asking something that Marlene and I and other legal information professionals we’ve we’ve had to deal with for 25 years. And I think the legal industry is now coming to this realization as well, is that, you know, for the longest time, we were thought of by the location that we were in. For the library, it was, you know, it was the shelf with the books and the people were there with the shelf with the books. You know, law firms are seen as a brick and mortar, some 40 storey tall building downtown, you know that you occupy the top five floors with beautiful views and beautiful conference rooms. And but that’s really not what a law firm is. It’s not necessarily about the location. And I think this pandemic is kind of accelerating this paradigm shift with within and it’s not just law firms, it’s law schools and courts are also finding this. So is this really something that, you know, the law firms just going to go back to being a place? Or do you think this is a paradigm shift, and it’s now going to be seen as a service in the law firm is going to have to adjust and figure out ways to train and mentor and facilitate, you know, lawyers and clients that aren’t necessarily physically in in a building?
Richard Hsu: Well, I think I mean, the answer is, it is and it isn’t. It is, I think, part about the paradigm shifting.
Greg Lambert: That’s a great lawyer answer.
Richard Hsu: Yes, and no, I was that, yes. You know, the paradigm shift part is definitely lawyers can deliver legal services remotely. That was understood, but now that’s completely, you know, that’s that there’s reality. And so and so the fact that this is offices is no barrier at all, to be able to deliver legal services, actually, to clients and clients don’t need to see their lawyers and clients don’t need to know where their lawyers are physically. I mean, that’s clearly true. And that has been proven now. This year, law firms are busier than ever with, you know, legal with with clients and legal work. So I think that part’s different. I think the part that’s not so not remains to be seen or I’m skeptical about is is more on the work side is whether the lawyers work effectively, remotely. Clearly the services delivered.
Greg Lambert: Well, Richard, it was great talking with you. You know, thanks for coming on sharing your thoughts on something that, you know we’re all eventually going to have to face this.
Marlene Gebauer: Thank you.
Richard Hsu: Greg and Marlene, always a pleasure.
Greg Lambert: It’s always a good conversation with Richard, I see a lot of truth in the assessment of the industry as we move forward, getting people back into the offices full time. So Marlene do you think we might be a little Little too pollyannish in our projections on how law firms will function in this type of hybrid working model,
Marlene Gebauer: I, I have never been told that I’ve been pollyannish. But, you know, I was playing devil’s advocate there for a while, and you know, but you know, Richard really had some some very good arguments in favor of being face to face. In many ways, it really does make a difference in terms of how you interact with people, and particularly, when you don’t know people. And you know, if we’re sort of in the situation where people aren’t having the opportunity to, you know, get to know people in person. You know, this is just something that sort of continues to build.
Greg Lambert: Yep. And this, I think this falls in the category of this is a challenge and a change in the structure of how we work. And there will be those who figure it out, and there will be those who get left behind. So I say you should, should start thinking about how you’re going to figure it out.
Marlene Gebauer: Mm hmm. I agree. I agree. I think so too. Because, you know, while people are facing a lot of stress now, I mean, that’s really because of the situation with the pandemic. That’s not necessarily because you’re working remotely. And I think people are really starting to, you know, recognize, you know, workers are starting to recognize the benefits of working remotely, and and the fact that there’s a lot less stress and certain ways of being able to work and maintain a personal balance.
Greg Lambert: Yeah. Well, thanks again to Richard Hsu for joining us today.
Marlene Gebauer: Thank you very much, Richard, it was great. Before we go, we want to remind listeners to take the time to subscribe on Apple podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts rate and review us as well. If you have comments about today’s show, or suggestions for a future show, you can reach us on Twitter at @gebauerm or at @glambert, or you can call the Geek in Review hotline at 713-487-7270 or email us at email@example.com And as always, the music here is from Jerry David DeCicca. Download his new album!
Greg Lambert: Yeah, go buy it. All right, Marlene, I will talk with you later.
Marlene Gebauer: Okay, bye bye.