This episode of The Geek In Review has it all. We talk with Kyle Doviken, Senior Director at Lex Machina about their legal analytics tool, and about Kyle’s passion for helping out in the Austin community through substantial Pro Bono efforts. (17:05)

Greg disturbs a recent third-time father, Noah Waisberg, CEO of Kira Systems to see how the acquisition of $50 million in minority funding will help Kira expand its reach into the legal market and, according to Waisberg, well beyond the legal market. (5:35)

We are adding a new (hopefully) installment of updates on government actions, public policy, and other actions affecting the legal information profession. Emily Feltren, Director of Government Relations at the American Association of Law Libraries fills us in on potential actions coming before the midterm elections, and AALL’s push to fill the Privacy and Civil Liberties Oversight Board. (11:10)

Marlene takes a break from the chaos of filling out school documents, by hand… in what she refers to as “Death by ten thousand papercuts, and two boxes of Kleenex… and recommends a Netflix movie called American Animals —warning for librarians… rare books are stolen!

Does rational debate still exist? Marlene points out Kialo, a platform which looks to do just that. Let Marlene know if you’ve ever used it.

And, Greg discusses his own view of an HBR Consulting article on whether law firms should buy vs build when it comes to technology development. (Spoiler… it’s buy!)

Remember to take time to subscribe via  iTunes, or Google Play , or whatever your platform of choice. Also, you can find Greg (@glambert) and Marlene (@gebauerm) on Twitter.


marlene gebauer 0:09
Welcome to The Geek in Review. The podcast designed to cover the legal information profession with a slant toward technology and management. I’m Marlene Gebauer,

Greg Lambert 0:17
And I’m Greg Lambert.

marlene gebauer 0:18
Well, Greg, we read that Bob Ambrogi is leaving his lawyer to lawyer podcasts and he’s going to focus on his law next podcast. We wish him well in this new endeavor and an extra big thank you to him for mentioning The Geek in Review as one podcast he really likes now see, I got to say thank you to Bob this time.

Greg Lambert 0:36
Yes, but I enjoyed the free advertising Thanks, Bob. We

marlene gebauer 0:39
both enjoy that. Bob have fun particularly with your son. That’s what it’s all about. And

Greg Lambert 0:44
let me know if your son’s for hire because I might need some editing skills.

marlene gebauer 0:50
So Greg, back to school, yes. Or as I like to call it death by 10,000 paper cuts and two boxes of Kleenex, you get to school last digit I did, I have just filled out 60 forms and feels like written as many checks or made as many online payments. Two times. It’s amazing to me that we still have no online option for many of these forms. And there’s no ability to remember the information which quite honestly doesn’t change from year to year, my PTO does a better job with ordering lunches online. I really I really, I really sort of wish we stayed hunter gatherers. I got my kids stay at camp all yours.

Greg Lambert 1:30
Well, at least the camp you probably had to fill out an online submission form to enroll your kids in camp. Yeah, it’s the same here. Luckily, I just have one left in high school. But I had to fill out the same form that I filled out for the last 15 years never having moved in. Not only that, but I had to fill out the same form three times in the same orientation right for one student when we’re done making the legal market more efficient. Let’s Let’s attack the public school system.

marlene gebauer 2:01
You know, I have a better idea. Let’s start with the public school system right now. So maybe I can keep my sanity for the next few years. Hey, so I saw this really good movie called American animals. I saw it on Netflix so everybody can see it on Netflix. If you have Netflix. It is both funny and horrifying. At the same time. Rotten Tomatoes refer to it as queasily compelling and I think that’s absolutely right. queasily compelling Okay, if that’s not a plug, I don’t I don’t know what is right. The movie centers around for college students in Kentucky, who stole rare books from the collection of Transylvania University. I didn’t even know there was a Transylvania University. I think that that’s wonderful. But if

Greg Lambert 2:47
Transylvania University has got to be anywhere except Transylvania, you know, the first place I think of is Kentucky.

marlene gebauer 2:53
Exactly. So did not and they were sentenced to seven years in prison, the actors recreate what happened but the former students and their parents and the librarian that they attacked are interspersed throughout the movie discussing their thoughts and recollections of the event and is fascinating to kind of hear the different recollections and kind of hear the build up about these kids who were all by by everyone’s accounts, good kids. It covers a lot of big issues. But the theme that struck me the most was something that the real librarian BJ Gooch said at the end of the movie, she said that these were privileged kids who expected things to come easy. When work was involved, they got discouraged, and they wanted to do something important and be important. This is kind of what they came up with. Did they really understand what they were doing? And I think as you see how the movie unfolds, that they thought this would be fun. This would be a prank. And then when it really came down to it, they felt like they couldn’t back out and really realize just what a horrible thing this wasn’t and and it’s affected them forever.

Greg Lambert 3:59
Yeah, a prank is filling your professors office up with balloons, stealing a $5 million book or set of books. It’s a little outside of print. Plus teasing the librarian. Not cool, man. Not cool at all. But it sounds fascinating. I haven’t seen it yet. But I am definitely gonna see it now.

marlene gebauer 4:21
And Greg, the other thing I just quickly wanted to mention is I was reading my Twitter feed and this site called Kiala, which is ki a l o, popped up. And it is a site that is advertised to empower rational debate and a way to avoid the Reddit craziness so people join this site and have rational debate on a variety of different topics. There’s rules involved and sort of how you present your arguments and I guess there’s moderation as well. I was interested in this I thought this was was kind of a this was a curious thing. So I did a little reading about And I’ve heard pros and cons. You know, the main con being that most people who are interested in rational debate would seek this out anyway. So maybe we don’t need that. But I guess my thought is like, well, this is a site for these people who want rational debate. So you know, maybe it’s not a bad thing. Anyway, I

Greg Lambert 5:17
just didn’t know that rational debate existed anymore. I thought I just put arguments on Facebook, and then I, you know, let go lock away. See

marlene gebauer 5:27
what happens. Yeah. You know, it seems that there are some people giving some thought to this. So I’m curious if anyone out there has tried it. And please tell us what what do you think so

Greg Lambert 5:36
Marlene, I saw the care systems got $50 million in minority funding this week. So I did a quick Skype call to Noah Whitesburg CEO of curious systems and asked him a few questions, did feel a little guilty and calling him up because he and his wife just had baby number three, so I kept it nice and short. So here’s the quick interview with Noah Weisberg. Hey, Noah, how are you? I am well. Well, most importantly, you know, I guess the big question is how’s How’s mom and daughter doing?

Noah Waisberg 6:04
Both are very happy. Good. The

Greg Lambert 6:08
other big news in your life is that Kira systems just received $50 million in minority funding from Insight Venture Partners. So I really wanted to ask you how this funding is going to help Kara in your efforts to expand into the legal industry and what your visions are for the company. Now that you have this funding?

Noah Waisberg 6:28
Well, we’ve been doing pretty well in the legal industry so far like it still a lot more ways to go to get to where we’d like to get to. But in preparation for talk, I was doing it Elta, I was looking at the global 100 list. And that list the majority of the top 30 firms on there, subscribe to us. And after you get past the 30 it drops off even more as you get to like AmLaw 200 firms and we still have enough firms in that spot past the 30. We know there’s a lot of opportunity there. We think there’s more opportunity even within those super large firms for them to be using us. But then we also think there’s a lot of opportunity beyond law firms as well, where to me there’s the sort of do more law sort of go against what Ron Friedman’s always been saying with the less law, my perspective on it has always been that there’s this incredible latent market of legal needs that aren’t being met right now. That if we can figure out how to deliver them in a way that consumers are interested in, but if we can figure out how to package our services up, provide services and package them up in a way that’s interesting to that late and legal market, there are these immense opportunities that go way beyond cura systems pushing in to like the analog 200, and continental Europe and all that. But the really, really, really exciting thing to me is what we’re trying to build in the future, which is something that is so compelling that enables people to solve problems that right now they don’t even realize they have because the problems are so hard to solve. So

Greg Lambert 8:02
what you’re saying is there’s a bigger world after then the Mr. 102 100 thing,

Noah Waisberg 8:07
I think there is a bigger world for the EMLA 100 200 even to be selling to right like absolutely. I think that even selling to the exact same clients that you are, I don’t think law firms as they are come close to serving all their clients legal needs. That makes sense. And I think there’s way more opportunity there as we package things up differently.

Greg Lambert 8:27
Well, excellent. Well thank you very much and really do appreciate you talking with us. Thanks for including me. Oh, one more thing what’s Have you named the baby yet? We have it’s Mira Mira beautiful name. Well congratulations to you to mom and Mira. Thanks.

Noah Waisberg 8:41
Thanks very much. Have a great day. You too.

Greg Lambert 8:43
Bye bye. So I wanted to dive in on and HBR Consulting article that I read over the weekend about whether law departments should build or buy legal analytics technology.

marlene gebauer 8:53
Now I feel bad about talking about movies. That’s fine.

Greg Lambert 8:56
That’s fine. It kind of fits nicely together with today’s interview of Kyle dava. Ken from Lex Machina, the article is focused on the in house legal departments. But I was reading it from more of an outside counsel perspective. And it solidified a few things that I’ve seen over the years. And I’m going to give you a spoiler alert here and that be cautious when it comes to building your own technology. So yes, so the HBR Consulting took a holistic look at technology licensing, development and implementation, training, as well as support and maintenance. In almost every case buying the technology is better than building there were some pieces where the DIY the do it yourself approach was preferred. But that had some very heavy exceptions to the general rule of buying DIY is great if the if it’s developed off of something that you already own, and can be adopted to improve something that already exists.

marlene gebauer 9:59
You know, it’s funny You’re talking about this. And I’m just like shaking my head while you’re speaking. Because we talk about this all the time at work. Does it make sense to buy? Does it make sense to make it it’s a real debate because you do have people on both sides of the argument and people really want, they get a lot of satisfaction out of making something. But, you know, when you’re looking at this as a business, decision, law firms aren’t in the business of being software companies, you really have to think hard about that before you start doing it yourself and maintaining it yourself. You know,

Greg Lambert 10:35
my biggest problem with the technology development, and it is confirmed in this report is that when we do it, we totally underestimate the time and cost of the projects. So I’m going to make a reference here that the the Gen Z’s and the millennials will have to Google but it’s the from Doug and Bob McKenzie and what I like to call the Fahrenheit problem. So whatever the cost and timetables are, double it and and 30 and that will give you a closer estimate on all the time and costs. Before we jump into the main interview with Lexmark and as Kyle data again, we are kicking off what we hope will be a monthly installment of updates on government actions, public policy, and other things affecting the legal information profession.

marlene gebauer 11:22
Sounds good. I can’t wait to hear it.

Greg Lambert 11:23
Alright, let’s jump into this month’s installment. Joining us today is Emily feltrin, the Director of Government Relations at the American Association of law libraries, or WWL. And she is joining us from Washington, DC. Hey, Emily, thanks for joining us.

Emily Feltren 11:41
Hey, Greg. Happy to be here today. Thanks for inviting me.

Greg Lambert 11:43
Now, there’s a government board that most of us have probably never heard of, but plays an important role regarding privacy and civil liberties. Thus, the name of Privacy and Civil Liberties Oversight Board. This week, over 30 organizations including double A double l just sent Congress a letter urging them to take action regarding this board. Can you tell us a little bit more about that. So

Emily Feltren 12:06
the board which is known in Washington acronyms speak as P club rolls right off the tongue that is a terrible acronym. So it was established in 2007. The creation of the board was one of the recommendations of the 911 Commission, actually, its mission is to provide additional oversight and accountability to the government’s efforts to combat terrorism to ensure that those efforts are balanced with the need to protect privacy and civil liberties. So sometimes that that balance needs to be reinforced where we have librarians Exactly. Perhaps most famously and recently P club called for an end to the NSA is collection of Americans phone records under Section 215 of the Patriot Act, otherwise known as the the library provision, section 215. So the board has a unique and important job within the executive branch. But the problem is the board can’t function without a quorum of at least three members. And as the letter that you mentioned, to the Senate Judiciary Committee states during the 11 years since Congress created P club as an independent agency, it’s actually only operated with a quorum for four and a half years, so not so long. And it’s been without a quorum since January 2017. So lots of good work that could be happening that unfortunately, isn’t able to occur. But the good news is that President Trump has actually nominated a full slate of five nominees, the Judiciary Committee has held hearings on three of them, but none of them have been approved, so the board can’t yet function. So as you mentioned, WWL joined more than 30 organizations concerned with privacy and civil liberties, to urge the Senate Judiciary Committee to approve the nominees to the board. So it can go about its low profile, but very important business

Greg Lambert 13:44
these days, almost nothing as low profile the same. So Well, good. Good luck. With that. I’ll follow back up with you to see how Congress acts on that. Sounds good. And speaking of Congress, the fall session is starting and with the possibility of change in leadership after the November midterms, you know, other than a few minor issues like the Cavanaugh hearings that are going on this week, or or that little meeting with Facebook and Twitter in that empty chair that Google’s supposedly going to have there. Are there some legislative priorities that Mitch McConnell and Paul Ryan are going to want to pass through before the elections, things

Emily Feltren 14:18
are definitely heating up here in Washington traffic has increased tenfold since yesterday, I think often at this point in a midterm election year, the majority party so the Republicans are looking to keep more of a low profile so as not to give fodder for the minority opponents. In this case, the Democrats, especially those in tight congressional races, we all know it’s easy to place blame on those in charge. So this year is a bit different, though, as things are in large part because we haven’t resident who has put several hot topics on the table for this fall. It’s possible we could get to the brink of a government shutdown in the next few weeks yet again, particularly if President Trump decides to push his border wall proposals. We’ll definitely be hearing lots more about it. possibility of a government shutdown as we get closer to October 1, the start of the new fiscal year. We’ll also see more about judicial nominations, not just the famous one with Kavanagh, but nominees for other federal courts as well. Immigration, social media transparency, as you alluded to, it’s going on the Hill today, whether these are things that the House and Senate leaders want to push. That’s a different story. Since Paul Ryan is leaving Congress at the end of the year and half of the Republican House committee chairs are leaving Congress. And there’s a good possibility that Democrats might win the house in November, there’s a lot of talk about future leadership in the House, what that might look like and how the Republicans and Dems can secure their own strong leadership. So that’s taking a certain amount of bandwidth and air out of the room as well. From where I sit in Washington on behalf of the Association WWL I see a few possibilities for information policies to move before the end of the year, whether that’s in the 63 days before the midterms are in the lame duck session after the election. WWL is still hoping that the house might pass the federal depository library program Modernization Act or HR 5305. For those of you following along at home to strengthen the federal depository library program. We might also see the confirmation of Robert kapela, Trump’s nominee to lead the government publishing office go forward as well. We could also see more discussion of net neutrality, copyright and the role of internet and tech companies. The Federal Records Act and Presidential Records Act, especially in light of the withholding of records related to Kavanaugh and Supreme Court nomination, the list could really go on and on. Overall, I think no matter what your pet issues are, what your priorities are. It’s safe to say it’s going to be an interesting couple of months before the midterms

Greg Lambert 16:40
so much for laying low to the midterms. Right? That’s right. Well, thank you, Emily, for joining us today.

Emily Feltren 16:47
Thanks so much.

Greg Lambert 16:48
Emily Felton is the Director of Government Relations or the American Association of law libraries. Again, thanks for the update. Talk to you next month. All right. From here, we’re going to jump straight into our interview with Kyle dava. Ken, so take it away Marlene.

marlene gebauer 17:07
Today’s guest is Kyle Doviken director of sales at Lex machina. For our listeners who don’t know, Lex Machina, tell us a little bit about what the product does. Thanks,

Kyle Doviken 17:15
Marlene. Thanks for inviting me to be part of the podcast. I’m really excited. Lex machina provides a tool for attorneys to make data driven decisions about things like how likely a judge is to grant a motion for summary judgment or Default Judgment. It’s also a tool for law firms just position themselves for business development purposes. And finally, for general counsel’s in corporate legal departments to choose outside law firms.

Greg Lambert 17:37
So that’s a good high level explanation of what Laksmana does, can you give us some real world examples of how an attorney would actually take the data and apply it to his or her work? Absolutely.

Kyle Doviken 17:48
Greg, a recent example I have is a law firm was representing a client, whether they were sued in New Jersey and their jersey. And interestingly, they were based here in Texas, and they were deciding on venue purposes. Well, should they, you know, remove it to Texas, and they looked at the data, and the judge that they drew in New Jersey was much more favorable based on their facts at hand. So they went back to their client and convinced their client that they have a much better chance of defending in New Jersey as opposed to Texas,

Greg Lambert 18:21
but their initial reaction would have been to remove it Texas, right. Yeah, because that’s what they’ve done. But they were actually able to look at the analytics of this judge how he or she ruled in the past. And it made more sense for them to stay in New Jersey.

Kyle Doviken 18:35
Absolutely. And what happened was they filed the motion for summary judgment, they won on summary judgment. And this law firm ended up getting a lot more business from this particular client. So you know, it’s really fascinating using analytics to make data driven decisions, as opposed to sort of Anik data, which we call just kind of just hoping and praying. Yeah,

Greg Lambert 18:53
a lot of a lot of times when lawyers hear analytics, they think, charts, graphs, but how do I actually use it in my day to day today? So you know, that’s, that’s a great example. Thanks.

Marlene Gebauer 19:04
What I like about your example is that the attorneys thought they knew what they knew. But when they looked at the evidence that was presented in front of them with the analytics, they realized that they didn’t actually know what they knew. And so they were able to pivot and change what they were going to do and be successful. So

Greg Lambert 19:21
they were actually assuming, and you know, what happens when you assume? Actually, Marlene is most happy about the story being in New Jersey, right? It’s

Marlene Gebauer 19:29
true. Yeah.

Kyle Doviken 19:30
It’s really interesting. There’s so many law firms today that send out this sort of, I call it a law firm letter. And if y’all do that, when you’re appearing before a particular judge will send out a letter saying, Hey, does anybody have experience with this particular

Marlene Gebauer 19:44
judge? Or pardon the interruption? Yeah, exactly. We all see those. Yeah.

Kyle Doviken 19:48
And that happens all the time. And you know, I graduated from law school almost 30 years ago, and when I was a summer associate at a large law firm in Omaha, Nebraska, that was one of the things that I did it wasn’t one A female, I would just walk from office to office back in those days and where you could just get on Lex Machina, and with a couple of clicks, find out how that judge is going to behave. So you know, stop all that

Greg Lambert 20:12
is actual results, not just experience from

Marlene Gebauer 20:15
anecdotal anecdotal experience experience,

Kyle Doviken 20:18
right, you can look at the whole corpus of that judges, all their rulings, as opposed to what your experience of one particular law firm even though your law firm might be really prominent and large, you should look at the entire history of the judge, not just your law firm.

Greg Lambert 20:35
Now, I’m going to hit you with kind of an outside the box question. But one of the things that I think Lex Machina is known for is not just taking the raw data and applying analytics to it, but actually improving the quality of the data. So for example, I heard an interview a couple of weeks ago with one of the LEX machina are discussing Lex Machina, and it talked about the nature suit codes and how those are not the best data points to be using, you guys have gone in and actually improved the types of data, how it’s organized, looked at it. And so how does that put you in an advantage against others that may just be using the data points that are available?

Kyle Doviken 21:22
You’re serving up softballs, Greg, I appreciate that. Thank you. So nature, suit codes are a great starting point. But what we’ve discovered is that if you just use se 830, which is patent, there might be other issues. And if you’re just looking at 830. And there’s there might be a trade secrets issue or element to that particular case, and you’re it’s just coded for patent, you might you’ll miss that. So what we do is we curate the data. So we look at, we look at it two ways, one with machine learning natural language programming. So our algorithm looks at it from a computer standpoint. And then secondly, we have human logic we have people look at it as well. So to see if it should be coded in two places, or maybe three places. It should be coded patent trademark, copyright trade secrets. So we have two different types of review. And that’s a real distinct advantage that we provide compared to some other vendors. So thanks for that question.

Marlene Gebauer 22:20
So Kyle, we could sit here and talk about analytics all day, nerd girl alert. But I we also brought you in because you know you were telling us a little bit about some of the pro bono work that you do. And you know, we’re excited for you to share some of those examples of what you’re doing, and discuss about some of the advantages attorneys and law firms can get out of that experience, because I know you do you work with them as well.

Kyle Doviken 22:46
Yeah, thanks, Marlene. I’m really passionate about pro bono legal practice. I’ve been a lawyer for a long time. And I practice for about five years in the early 2000s as my only job and now my full time job. My day job, so to speak, is working for Lex machina. I’m passionate about that. But I’m privileged that they allow me to appear in court pretty frequently. So shout out to Josh Becker and Carl Harris for allowing me to do that. But I also do legal clinics at night. So Monday nights through the volunteer Legal Services of Central Texas, we are at Morton Middle School in East Austin and Wednesday nights, we’re near North Austin. And what we do is provide 15 minute representation for people to come. And we have two different tracks. We have a family law side, which is where I’m a family law lawyer. So we represent give advice to people on family issues like divorce, child custody, child support, adoption, those sorts of things. And then we have another track where we do Wilson, the state’s landlord, tenant disputes, contract disputes, those types of things. And it amazes me every time that people will come and wait, sometimes two, three hours for to talk to a lawyer. Um, and sometimes we’re there till eight o’clock at night. And, you know, typically it’s six till you know, 730 or so it’s I’ve been there till nine o’clock, sometimes people will be lined up out of the door. So it’s a great opportunity.

Marlene Gebauer 24:07
Yeah, I mean, just just your example, you know, you’re highlighting the fact that there is a great need for access to justice. And I mean, if people are waiting or willing to wait that long, just to get an audience with an attorney to solve some of the real world problems. There’s real need here. And folks like you and firms that do this pro bono work can really offer some assistance here. Now, I know you have some really interesting examples of some of the work that you know, you have done and you’ve you’ve partnered with firms to do this. So I’m wondering, can you talk a little bit about that?

Kyle Doviken 24:42
Yeah, I think probably the, maybe the proudest day ever as as a lawyer when the Obergefell decision came down.

Marlene Gebauer 24:50
And can you can you tell everybody with the overview over

Kyle Doviken 24:53
Obergefell versus Hodges was decided by the US Supreme Court in June of 2015. And it was the gay marriage decision and equal marriage for all Americans. And in Austin, Texas, where I’m from, we married the most gay lesbian couples anywhere. I think at that point in one day in Texas, interestingly, has a 72 hour waiting period by the time you get a marriage license to when you get married. And usually, I think that’s a common sense law for most folks, when you’re getting married, or some of these folks have been waiting for a long time, Greg, and and the first couple that I help, you can file a motion and district court judge can waive that. So the first couple that I helped had been together for, I think, 25 years or something like that. So they had waited a long time. So they were pretty sure that they were okay. Excellent. That must have made you feel pretty good. It was amazing. Yeah, there were lots of tears all the way around. And you know, it was great. The motion took about 35 seconds, I think, and they granted it and then they got married in about 60 seconds. So you know, it was a great day. And

Greg Lambert 25:54
I think maybe people that don’t do pro bono work have a perception of the type of person that may need pro bono work. That’s really kind of a wide range of people in our in our society that take advantage of the pro bono work that’s that’s available that you offer. Am I Am I right on that?

Kyle Doviken 26:10
Oh, absolutely. Yes. I mean, for the most part, it’s it’s a lot of low income folks who don’t have the ability to hire firms like yours, or the two of you work. But it’s also with the Obergefell case, it was we were organized and the LGBTQ community, we had a texting list that when that decision was handed down, the lawyers that volunteered and the paralegals it was a whole takes a village, it was a whole, I had a very small role. It was a whole group of us were basically an assembly line. And there were folks that were taking advantage of that were all levels

Greg Lambert 26:44
of income. I don’t think Marlene or I could afford our firms either. Probably Now, speaking of law firms, what do you see law firms like ours doing or some of the things we can do and what the advantage of us doing pro bono work is?

Kyle Doviken 27:00
Yeah, so I see your firm actually, Greg was was I was part of it when Hurricane Harvey last year affected Houston, you know, really in a major way, but affected Austin, where there were a lot of displaced people came to Austin to live. And we did a some of them were in sort of a tent city. And there was a call that went out for lawyers to go tent by tent and give representation because there was, I think it was a partner from your firm was publicizing they were changing the laws of September 30. And I’m not an insurance lawyer, I don’t even play one on TV. But we were able to go around and to make sure that they fill out their forms properly. And, you know, I was part of a group that did that. And we made sure that, you know, they had their rights were intact. And it was kind of cool to be able to do that. And the outpouring was so great that they thought we’re going to do that over like three or four days. And we did it in a day. And that was it. Everybody got served in one day where they thought it was gonna be three or four days. So it’s firms like yours, and other large Texas firms that really volunteered and you know, help folks that were displaced. Okay.

Marlene Gebauer 28:04
Oh, clearly, you get something out of this from giving to others. Have you seen any other examples of where other people have maybe become enlightened based on their experience in doing pro bono work?

Kyle Doviken 28:16
Yeah, it’s funny that you mentioned that Marlene, I had a young associate, or actually a summer associate from a large firm this summer shadowed me and she was in her suit. I was wearing jeans, I think in a polo shirt and and kind of what you’re wearing right kind of what I’m wearing right now. Yeah, pretty much. And she was from Harvard Law School. This startups. Yeah, exactly. She was from Harvard Law School. And she shadowed me and she’s like, this is you actually talk to people? And I said, yeah, she’s this, that woman was a client, and we’re representing her and trying to help her out. And this woman was amazed. There are people out there that that really need help. So I was happy to, you know, help her see what the other side of the table looks like. You made it made it real for her. I made it really real for her. Yeah. And hopefully, you know, I gave her the commercial that hey, you should try to maybe do some of this when you get your license. Absolutely

Greg Lambert 29:09
love. And a lot of lawyers I think have that passion to help others. I know a lot of people look at large law firm and the attorneys and the types of work that we do the client big clients that we have, there’s a lot of pro bono work that some of it we’re required to do. But I think firms like ours would do it, regardless of whether it was required or not. We and we do far more than anything that the local bar association may ask us to do. So it’s I think we see it as a passion for a lot of people to do pro bono.

Marlene Gebauer 29:44
And Greg, I know you and I have have talked about the fact that you have sort of new generations of attorneys coming in and that social service is really important to them. So I think this this ties in quite nicely with, you know, not only giving back to the community At but things like retention things like, you know, Attorney satisfaction, just from a work perspective and from a growth of a firm perspective.

Kyle Doviken 30:09
Totally. I think recruitment for civic minded firms have a definite advantage to recruiting the new generation of attorneys, because I think they’re maybe more enlightened than maybe our RH lawyers.

marlene gebauer 30:24
Well, it’s just something that’s important to them and that they want to include as part of their work life.

Kyle Doviken 30:29
Yeah, for sure. Yeah, this

Greg Lambert 30:31
new generation, I think we talked about it last week, Marlene, but they feel empowered. And it’s not they’re not waiting and sitting back to say, I can make a difference. They are agents of change. And they see themselves as agents of change. So I think this will be something as this next generation starts coming into the legal market, that this will be something that is a huge passion for them. And if I’m with the Bar Association, and we run a pro bono, I would start chomping at the bit waiting for these people to come in, because I think they’re going to be a great asset to access to justice issues.

Kyle Doviken 31:05
Yeah, completely agree.

Greg Lambert 31:06
All right. Well, Kyle, thank you very much for taking the time to talk to us today. It’s very exciting, both to talk about the Lexmark in that part of your life, and also the pro bono part. So it’s very inspiring. Thank you.

Kyle Doviken 31:17
Thanks, Greg. It’s been really exciting being here and appreciate it. Thank

marlene gebauer 31:20
you, Kyle. Thanks, smiley. Well, Greg, I really enjoyed that interview with Kyle. And I really enjoyed hearing about the analytics and what Lex Machina is doing. And I also really enjoyed hearing more of a personal perspective about his work with pro bono and what he’s getting out of it. And what you know, hopefully what others can can take away from that.

Greg Lambert 31:44
I agree. It was really interesting to just hear the personal stories that he has, ranging from helping people on a personal level to helping with insurance needs after a flood. There’s just a lot of need out in the legal market for this type of work. And kudos for all the lawyers that do the pro bono work out there. I think it’s, you’ve heard it in Kyle’s voice that it’s very fulfilling. Absolutely.

marlene gebauer 32:11
Well, it’s that time again, Greg. Yes, it is to tell you that we have concluded another podcast. This one’s been a busy one. It has been it has been. It was great to have the opportunity to work with you in Texas. That was a lot of fun. And hopefully we’ll get to do that again. Yeah, but I bet you’re happy to be home other than the 10,000 paper cuts. Absolutely.

Greg Lambert 32:39
Well, thanks again to our guest today. Emily feltrin. From wa who has government relations and to Kayo Dov, again from Lexmark.

marlene gebauer 32:47
Thank you Emily. Thank you, Kyle.

Greg Lambert 32:49
Also, thanks to Noah Weisberg from Kira systems and congratulations on the $50 million. Yeah, congratulations

marlene gebauer 32:56
on that. That’s a big deal. And

Greg Lambert 32:58
as always, thanks again to Kevin MacLeod for his original music.

marlene gebauer 33:02
All right, bye bye

Greg Lambert 33:03

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