While neurodiversity might be an unfamiliar word for many, its meaning is simple. We all have different brains. For the legal field, there is value in this, as we need to be able to look at problems in different ways and find new approaches to solving those problems. Haley Moss is an author, attorney, and advocate for neurodiversity, and is neurodivergent herself. Haley has autism, which she sees as both a disability and makes her different. But it also makes her interesting, and while she doesn’t know what it means to be neurotypical, she is fine with that and sees her difference not as a curse, but as a benefit. It is the difference in the way that she processes information, solves problems, and it is the neurodiversity that drives her and others to be innovative. She wrote her first book at age 15 and has a desire to use her experiences to help the next generation.

Haley Moss explains that we can’t just look at neurodiversity disabilities in a vacuum. After all, this is the only minority group you can join at any point in your life. The more we understand the issues surrounding neurodiversity, and accommodate for those issues, the better we will be as an industry and a society.

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Transcript

Marlene Gebauer

We are very excited to welcome Haley Moss, author of Great Minds Think Differently, Neurodiversity for Lawyers and Other Professionals. Haley, welcome to The Geek in Review.

Haley Moss

Thank you so much for having me.

Greg Lambert

So, Haley, you spoke at my firm during a diversity and inclusion luncheon that we hold each month here. And I, honestly, I was just blown away by your frankness and honesty of what you were saying what it was like to be a lawyer who was diagnosed with autism as a child, and share those personal and professional experiences as you become an author, an advocate, attorney and public speaker for the topic of neurodiversity. And, and I was really excited that or I was so excited that I actually reached out to you I think, I don’t even know if you had finished the talk. But I had already reached out to see if you would come on over.

Haley Moss

You were pretty ambitious. I love it.

Greg Lambert

Yes.  I was I was. So it’s very kind of you to take the time to talk with us.

Marlene Gebauer

He knows a good guest when he sees one.

Greg Lambert

I do.  Strike when the iron is hot.

Haley Moss

I’m flattered.

Greg Lambert

We’ve discussed neurodiversity on this show before. But would you mind just laying out some of the groundwork here and explaining what neurodiversity is, especially when it comes to how it applies to the legal culture and profession?

Haley Moss

Absolutely. So I think when we talk about neurodiversity, we’re really bad at conceptualizing it because we think this is new, what language do we use? Who is covered? What does this even mean? Because and I think a lot of this comes from the fact that neurodiversity is a fairly new term that really originated in the late 90s. So it was coined by an autistic sociologist named Judy Singer. And it was really explaining this idea that we have different brains. We’re neurodiverse as a society, we all have different brains. Wonderful. So what neurodiversity really gets that is the difference of brains is natural. It’s something that we should expect. And it’s something that deserves to be accepted and respected. So no matter whether you’re neurotypical and your brain acts in expected, normal, whatever normal is supposed to mean ways or your neurodivergent. And your brain acts outside of that box of what we’re expecting. That you still deserve that same respect, and dignity, and acceptance. So folks who are neurodivergent might include, but definitely not limited to autism, ADHD, learning disabilities, psychiatric and mental health disabilities, intellectual disability. So that’s not comprehensive. But that’s kind of the big categories. And with the legal profession, this is really important, because we’ve always had a neurodiverse legal profession, whether or not we want to admit it. And we often have a lot of stigma surrounding a lot of these different conditions and neurodivergent conditions and different ways of being in trades especially. So it’s rooted in how we talk about professionalism, who we see as being a good culture fit that there’s so much that if we really kind of extract it, and we realize that we are having these different types of biases, and things like ableism, since neurodiversity is very tied to disability. And a lot of these conditions that you might hear people go, is it a difference? Is that a disability? Is it both? Is it neither? And it’s definitely in both categories if you ask me. And we can get into that if we want to. But I know for me, autism is both disabling and it makes me different. And it’s interesting, and life is fun that way, I don’t know what it’s like to be neurotypical, I don’t really want to know, I’m fine with it, I’m at peace. I don’t really want to be cured or anything. That’s kind of my little political version of how I feel about autism, and neurodiversity more broadly. But the ableism component and those microaggressions and stigmas, I think are things that lawyers really face. And as we know, our profession has a really big initiative about lawyer mental health, but it really ignores that this is something that is natural, that there’s not something inherently wrong with you, if you have these differences if you’re processing information differently, or in an unexpected way. And it’s something that actually if we really look at it more broadly, it’s to our benefit that we do have different ways of processing information, of solving problems, and ultimately, disability neurodiversity drives innovation.

Marlene Gebauer

So Haley, you kind of touched a little bit on, you know, things that might come up in a job environment. So being quote-unquote, friendly-looking people in the eye, things like that. Is there anything in particular about the legal profession that makes it more challenging for the neurodivergent than other professions?

Haley Moss

Oh, my gosh, I think when we start unpacking so much of legal culture, we could be here all day of what makes it a barrier to access. And one of those first job interview barriers to access is those on-campus interviews that I know that many of us have loved, hated or absolutely dreaded, or skipped while we were in law school. So think about OCI and this very, stay with me for this for a minute. So, you know, OCI has a very different set of rules than most other job interviews, they might be held in hotels, you might be meeting with a bunch of different people, sometimes it’s formal, then you get taken out to maybe a lunch or a dinner. And that does not go well with this conventional idea of what job interviews are, if that you have to have these behaviors, you have to do this, you know, it’s going to be formal that it’s in an office that it ends, the minute you walk out the door, and you send your thank you email 20-24 hours later at the maximum. And there are these very prescribed rules, you know, you should be following in OCI really throws that off. And if you are someone whose brain is really dependent on that predictability on that routine, or you’re someone who struggles with neurotypical social cues, things like eye contact, and things like that, just imagine what a barrier that is not being adequately prepared for that. And I think in legal what makes that even more difficult is when you have folks that work in say, like vocational rehab, or other job coaching services that people who do have more support needs, or young adults who are neurodivergent might be accessing, they don’t have that experience either. So they can’t really prepare you for that. So I like to say that is kind of my first big one. But I think generally, when it comes to law firm culture, in particular, we really are looking for folks who are able to interact with people who are seen as personable, that do make that eye contact. And we don’t realize that those measures don’t always predict who’s going to be a great lawyer. And some of them are just our own personal biases. So I personally am not great at eye contact. Eye contact for me requires that all of my energy goes to looking at your face versus actually listening to what you’re saying. I will put that energy into looking at you to make you feel comfortable, then I’ll have no clue what just happened. And I will ask you to repeat the question. And chances are, you’ll go, but you were looking at me you were listening, you’ll be thinking that you know, and then, no. So I wasn’t always listening, because I was trying to put all that extra energy into that it doesn’t mean you can’t trust me, it means that’s not how I best can focus and process information. So I think when we talk about some of those different traits as well, that’s something that’s kind of comes down to what does this mean? Why do we think this is important? And we need to see this from a different perspective.

Marlene Gebauer

Okay, so if you’re having trouble making eye contact, and that basically forces you to expend too much energy, and not be able to focus on what the person is saying? How do you educate people about that? How do you get them to understand that no, it’s not that I’m not paying attention to you by not looking at you, it’s like, that actually helps me pay attention to you, even though that’s something that you might not be used to?

Haley Moss

it really depends on the situation. So if it’s something that I don’t know, and I don’t have that comfort level with, and I don’t want to disclose, I will just stare at your nose, and you won’t know the difference. And that will be my compromise. If it’s someone that I really do know, I might just say I, I’m able to best listen, if I if my gaze is somewhere else, or if I’m doodling at the same time, as we know, there are lots of doodlers and editors and people who always have something going on in their hands. But it doesn’t mean they’re totally distracted. And that helps them regulate their attention. So sometimes I might just lead with one of those. “I do best when” type statements. And usually, that takes care of a lot of needs that I have without having to go that formal accommodation rules are really having to say too much about my disability if I don’t want to. So I usually do that when I ask for instructions. Because you know how many times especially for young lawyers, we’ve gotten things of “go write this motion.” And you’re sitting there going, what do I do? How long is it supposed to be? What is the thing that the partner is looking for? And the first time that happened to me, I got to go write this motion. And I stared at the wall for four hours, because I just didn’t know what to do. And eventually, I ended up going back after I finally got the courage to say something and said, I work best when they give me clear instructions. I didn’t tell you that I don’t want to disappoint you that I’m scared that I have all sorts of other feelings. It just said, If you spell out what you need from me, I will get it done. And that was enough to start that process for me in an informal way that my employer felt okay with it. And I felt like I was actually able to do my job. So I think when it does come to that disclosure component and advocating for yourself, it’s very case by case. It’s how much do you want to share? How much do you feel comfortable sharing? Or do you even feel safe sharing? So when we talk about disclosure, it’s kind of a mess because it is so individualized and situational.

Greg Lambert

I was gonna follow up and say there’s a doodler on the call here.

Marlene Gebauer

That’s true!

Haley Moss

I am. I doodle all the time and the first time I ever got shamed for it was in high school US history.

Marlene Gebauer

You got shamed for it? Oh, you know, I got shamed for it too. Like the people think you’re not paying attention when you do it, but you’re actually you actually are paying attention when you do it.

Haley Moss

You see the worst is that I was an illustrator. So my doodles were really elaborate and really nice. And if I really liked it after class, I would actually try to paint it or do something else with it. So it really looked like it wasn’t paying attention because they were actually decent. Swirls and like that little S that all of my friends was, like, full-on anime characters and other stuff. And my US History teacher was like, how are you like not failing my class?

Marlene Gebauer

Right, right. Right. Yeah. Greg knows, like, same here. It’s like doing a lot of fashion designs while I’m listening. But it was really interesting.

Haley Moss

And it helps me regulate my attention because my hands have to be doing something. My hands are always doing something.

Marlene Gebauer

Yeah. But what I was going to follow up about was clear instructions. And I had to chuckle about that. Because I think so often, and I’m not going to just pick on law. But I think in any job situation, normal situation, you know, personal situations. It seems really hard for people to give very detailed, clear instructions. And I’m, you know, I’m guilty of that as well. And I’m just trying to think of, again, how best to coach people to do that.

Haley Moss

I always think about what’s the most important thing. So you obviously want a thoughtful answer to this or even that you know that there’s an argument in there that is complete garbage, and that you need to basically refute it. Please research why their argument is garbage. Especially I think about this, especially as someone who is relatively inexperienced, because we do have lots of people who are inexperienced because law school doesn’t always prepare you, the bar exam doesn’t always prepare you for that first moment when it’s like go do the thing. So I think about what would you tell someone who might not have that complex understanding, or might not be seasoned enough to kind of know what’s expected? What I always do now, or in what’s been recommended to me is, every time that I work with new people, I make a list of bullet points of things they should know about working with me. And we usually if I’m with a team, we all end up doing it. So I’ll tell you, I’ll tell you three really important things about me. I’ll tell you, I’m not a morning person. I’ll tell you that, sometimes I might forget to answer email. So it’s okay, if you follow up, I promise you’re not bothering me. And I’ll tell you something like phone calls make me anxious because then I’m concerned that I really did something wrong, or that somebody died or that something bad happened. And my immediate response is defense. So if I tell you just those couple things about me, I think, okay, so we should schedule any major meetings, Probably not, when you’re first waking up. That things that are text or email are probably a better way to communicate with you. And try to be clear about certain instructions, like that’s enough to be like, Okay, I can work with that. But everybody has those needs. And it doesn’t tell you anything about my disability status. It doesn’t tell you if I’m neurodivergent, or neurotypical, it just tells you, these are things that would make things go smoother. So I look at that as kind of a, this is something everybody can do thing. But I think it’s super helpful, especially because we do have all these concerns socially, like, if we do follow up with someone, are we annoying them? Are we being mean, are we doing something wrong? And the truth is, at least for me, you’re not, but I know that some folks have different feelings. And usually, there are ways that we’re able to accommodate them without realizing that we’re doing it and also helping ourselves at the same time. Think about calendar invites, like, it helps you but it really, really helps me. Because if I don’t have a calendar invite for something, I don’t know what happens.

Greg Lambert

But you said there reminded me. And I think it was Brene Brown that has, I forget which book it was where she was talking about that, where she would get people together and say, pick five things that are their values. And it sounds like that’s almost in the same vein as that as you’re asking people to say, pick a few things that are really important for you on how you best where you work, how you work with others. So yeah, that’s very interesting because it was funny because I actually had sent my boss, that same recommendation that that’s what we do is just to senior managers. So that was ringing a bell as you were, as you were talking about it.

Haley Moss

Everything needs to be inclusive and accessible forever. And that’s one of those ways that we’re able to kind of design with a difference in mind, but without outing anybody particularly.

Greg Lambert

That kind of runs right into the question I have is one of the issues that we have when just drafting the questions for the neurodiversity topic is being very careful on not overstepping our bounds or asking people to share more than what they’re comfortable with? So how do you, you know, set your own boundaries of discussing neurodiversity, and I would say specifically autism, with those who may interview you for a job, or your boss, or your peers or subordinates, or even podcast host.

Haley Moss

It’s so situational. So but there see,

Greg Lambert

But, law school has taught you that it depends.

Haley Moss

It depends. It really does.

Marlene Gebauer

But that’s gonna be hard to implement, say, you know, for a firm where they have to have some sort of methodology.

Haley Moss

I think about why people don’t share, because I think that’s almost easier to understand as to why someone does. So I think when people don’t share, because I know why I won’t share, I have not shared because I felt unsafe, I felt scared, I felt that this is someone who might not be in my corner. There are so many, or maybe I was at a place where I didn’t feel comfortable with that about myself. So I think when we come to that, that’s a whole other thing is how do we create that culture of inclusion necessarily? I think about that. But for me, I usually am pretty comfortable sharing but like most people, I have boundaries. So I work a lot with and a lot of my audiences are often teachers and families as well on top of lawyers and families of autistic and neurodivergent kids and family members really want to know a lot of information. Because it’s rare to them, sometimes that they get to meet an adult who has the same condition as their child. And sometimes they will ask questions that I will never, ever feel comfortable answering. So it might be that they’re asking about what my SAT scores were. Or it might be asking about something like if I’ve been in romantic relationships, and these things for me are just

Marlene Gebauer

like, I was trying to be quiet. I’m like, What?

Haley Moss

No, you really, you would genuinely be surprised by what kind of questions with a disability that people want to know. And I know this because I TA’d a Disability Studies class in college, and everybody’s biggest question every semester, was about people in wheelchairs having sex. Like that was all people really wanted to know at that age. Because people always had questions. And of course, we had to actually answer these questions as best we can, based on documentaries, in different information from self-advocates who actually had expertise in these areas. But I do realize something when you are sharing your own story, whether it’s to get accommodations, whether it’s that you want to bring your full self to work, no matter what the situation is, you really have to set boundaries. Because you could end up getting in one of those situations where you’re getting uncomfortable questions not for like, oh, one where you’re diagnosed? Or can you bring a bunch of medical paperwork questions? But actual curious probing questions, because people have that little experience or knowledge or expectation of people with disabilities more broadly.

Marlene Gebauer

So they’re not trying to be nosy. They just want to know.

Haley Moss

They genuinely just don’t know. They either genuinely don’t know, or they’re just that curious because it just never occurred to them. Like, oh, wait, there are real adults out there. So I think what disclosure for me, I look at it as how can I do this? For me, it’s almost inevitable. You google my name, you’re gonna find out. So it’s how do I be proactive about this? In a way that isn’t weird? That’s how I always see it. So sometimes, it might be even having something like my book on my resume. Oh, what got you interested in the topic? Oh, I don’t know. I can’t really lie about that one yet? No, I’m not that smart. I’m not creative enough to come up with the oh, you know, I just think it’s interesting because you will know that I’m complete, like, full of it, you’ll just know, put it lightly, you’ll know. So for me, and I think for me, especially in an interview context, you have to almost phrase it as something that’s not such a definitely have to be careful and how you phrase it cuz you don’t want to be perceived as less. You don’t want it being perceived as a deficit, you still have to be able to say I am perfectly capable to do this, I am absolutely confident, I might just need more support. So I always think that it’s very personal, how you disclose what those pros and cons are, and kind of be ready to advocate for yourself more than you probably had wanted to. And if you do get those really uncomfortable questions, I think you have to just set a boundary. And I think, especially if you’re a young person, it’s that much harder to do. And learning how to set those boundaries, even when people push back against those boundaries is really, really tough.

Marlene Gebauer

Well, I think that’s good advice for everyone, quite honestly, in terms of setting boundaries. I want to flip the question a little bit. Do you have suggestions of what boundaries are for others, the people who want to better understand proper interactions with those who may be neurodivergent? You know, what sort of behaviors should they adopt and avoid?

Haley Moss

Oh my gosh, I think avoiding is easier to start. I think first, I think treating us like people is probably the easiest thing to say. And the thing that is sometimes the hardest for certain folks. So for me, I realize that people sometimes conflate autism with intellectual disability. There are plenty of autistic people who do have intellectual disabilities, I am not one of them. And that’s not a slight against intellectual disabilities. And anything since those folks are super worthy, and valid and deserve all the love and they have that many more extra barriers in their way. But the way that people with intellectual disabilities get talked down to is completely unfair, and when it happens to me, I want to scream. I think they want to scream as well that you get the baby voice and people treat you like you’re like a little kid. And I’ve had to happen with attorneys is they don’t know how to treat me. And then they’ll like, pull out the baby voice, oh, my God. Or they’ll do this. I’m so sorry. You’re so inspiring. And I’m like, I just had a question. Like, it’s so many things that you realize don’t happen to non-disabled, and neurotypical people, but that they tend to do so I try to avoid anything that’s tokenizing or patronizing. I think that’s kind of a good rule of thumb is just that dignity and respect. I think it’s okay to ask questions. And to be curious. I have nothing wrong with curiosity. But again, when we’re talking about boundaries, if there’s a boundary drawn, that is a sign of trust, of saying, this is where I don’t feel comfortable, please respect that. It is not a personal thing. It is not personal for me, whenever someone asked me something about relationships or something, and I decide this is not for discussion. It’s not personal. It’s just self-preservation-type stuff. And it’s just I don’t feel comfortable. And that might be a boundary that I’ve set with somebody else, too. So I think what we’re talking about, I think boundaries is a big one. I think asking people how they like to be described or how they identify, I think that’s always important because I think that people have very different relationships, if with their own conditions, and if they have a disability, or if they are neurodivergent. So I know folks who have mental health conditions that won’t identify with neurodiversity, or I know people who extremely do. And I know people that like me will say that autistic people who say they have autism, like there’s no correct one size fits all approach. I also think that this goes for everyone. But communicating clearly and directly, I think, is super helpful for a lot of us. I know, for me, it’s very difficult to read between the lines. And some of those social cues. I love when people are direct with me, it’s very unnatural for a lot of people because they are told not to do that. But for neurodivergent people, a lot of us, it’s very much natural to us. So I feel like there are two different languages of social communication being spoken sometimes. And instead, we’re just expected to adapt to how neurotypicals communicate for everything. And from the time we’re young, we’re taught that the way that we naturally communicate is a failed version of that. So I think it’s important, especially when we see some of these traits as well, but are also really empathetic in that I know we have this very high ideal of what professionalism is, and all these ideas about what is expected. And I think sometimes looking a little bit deeper, and being more empathetic about that is something that we can all do, and be curious and empathetic. So I think about my friends with ADHD who are chronically late. And the first thing we think is they can’t get it together. They’re lazy. They’re unprofessional, we put all these immediate stigmatizing things. A lot of my friends with ADHD are time blind, they don’t realize how much time has passed, they might not realize that they had to leave 10 minutes ago, that they might have gotten hyper-focused on something that they were interested in or excited about, or they just got distracted with something, or their executive function just didn’t quite work and they had a bad brain day. I think that when we realize that it might be something else, not that this person is lazy and doesn’t care, that it makes us better human beings for realizing that and for being as supportive as we can. So when I know folks are chronically late and like Is everything okay? Not that oh my god, this person’s just lazy, or that they just don’t care, or they’re not making an effort. I was like, are you okay? Is something going on? Like I tried to be as gracious as I can because I know that we’re all human at the end of the day and that sometimes it is deeper, or there is something else like you might not want to tell me that you struggle with things like time blindness or executive functioning, but you might want me to know that it’s not a moral failing. And I think that we do conflate a lot of these types of things that might be symptoms of something larger as moral failings.

Greg Lambert

Interesting, interesting. So, Hayley, in instances, like in education, there are those who are classified as neurodivergent. And they can receive educational plans that legally at least theoretically are supposed to be followed. What about in the workplace? Are there legal protections that the ADA or other laws out there that legislate in provide protections within the workplace?

Haley Moss

So the big one for the workplace is still Title I of the Americans with Disabilities Act. So I know we think that is still new to us because it’s from 1990. I liked to remind you that the ADA is older than me. So we’ve all had plenty of time to figure this out by now, hopefully, you would hope so. But most of what the ADA really does give guidance on is this very broad definition of what disability is. That of course, I know, courts still sometimes try to figure it out. Now they have a little bit more guidance, but it’s very broad, like this physical or mental impairment that substantially limits one or more major life activities. And if you look at what a major life activity is, it’s pretty much very broad. And basically, what Title I says is that if you’re an employer with 15, or more employees that you can’t discriminate on the basis of disability. So you are provided to, you’re required to provide reasonable accommodations, at any point in the employment process, as long as it’s not basically an undue hardship. So basically, it can’t be impossible or inordinately expensive. So whenever I talk about this in my last firm job, my last firm had fluorescent lights, and fluorescent lights, hum, they are bright, they get migraines are many, many reasons that people don’t like them. For me, they hum and I can’t block that out, no matter how hard I try, it’s just so distracting. And every time I mentioned that somebody is like, Oh, my God, I can’t unhear that now. So I apologize, I apologize. If now you’re not gonna be able to hear that for the rest of the time we’re talking. So if I wanted a reasonable accommodation, I probably can’t demand the office switch everything over to LEDs, it’s probably not going to happen this switch out an entire two-story building, as much as I would have loved it. And maybe it might have been more environmentally friendly, I can give you 50 million reasons that would be all for it. On top of the fact they don’t hum and they don’t give me migraines. Unfortunately, that is probably not reasonable. It’s not impossible, but it’s probably expensive. And it’s probably just a lot of effort. So what would be reasonable is maybe if we had, maybe there’s some are quieter in the office, maybe there’s somewhere that didn’t have fluorescent lights, maybe I can shut them off, maybe I can close the door, or I can wear headphones. But there are so many different things that I could do that would be low cost or no cost to my employer that we can agree upon together, we ultimately agreed upon headphones, because as long as I can hear the phone ring, that was kind of the stipulation there, which I thought was fine, I didn’t have a problem with that. Because you know, there’s always calls coming in, you have to be ready. So I was able to block out the noise, which was fine. So I think about what is reasonable, and that looks different for different people. So maybe it’s being able to fidget, maybe it’s getting up a little bit, maybe it’s having kind of a quiet space that you can go run off to if you’re just feeling overwhelmed. Or maybe it’s even something with billable hours if that’s essential as part of what you struggle with your disability. So I know, at least for me, I do, I used to ask how long something should take ideally because I would get really hyper-focused that there’s something super interesting in research. And I could spend the whole day on it. But that doesn’t mean I should be doing that. Or that’s realistic for billing for the whole day of eight hours of oh, this is a really interesting rabbit hole, I’m going to learn everything there is to know about this really niche issue, that maybe it was a three-hour issue. And that’s what I should be allocated to best manage my time. So sometimes I would ask for help, but things like managing my time, so I knew what to do. And I think we have to be creative. I think it really is an interactive process, which is something that you hear people say about accommodations from an HR perspective is interactive. But I don’t think that means it has to be super formal all the time. I think that a lot of it is just being able to communicate with whoever you’re working with, and being able to advocate for yourself. So if I just say I need clear instructions, we can figure out what that means we can figure out if that means you need to write something out. If you need to give me a visual, if there’s a template, from something that’s been done before, there are many ways that you can figure out what that means. It’s just having that jumping-off point to realize what you need or what you think you might need. And I think especially coming from law school or an educational setting, that’s really difficult to do. Because in the past, you’ve probably had different teachers, different psychologists, different people assessing your needs all the time. Or you had this plan that followed you for many, many years. And you knew that Okay, since kindergarten, I’ve been getting extra time. Therefore, I will probably be able to get extra time in law school as long as that somebody says that it’s still relevant. I did not do extra time, which is why for me accommodations were always a disaster because I didn’t need it. And that was always what was offered to me and I didn’t know I had other options, because no one told me there were other options. So looking back there are things that I think I needed, but I didn’t know I can ask for. But I think in the workplace, it really is more interactive than it is when you do have things like IEP meetings and K through 12. Or if you had a 504 plan, or if you worked with a university Disability Services Center or staff.

Greg Lambert

One of the things that in you, you mentioned both here, and when you’re presenting at my firm, basically what you’re saying here is I work better when blank. I have headphones. When I do this. It reminds me of there was a study decades ago when the ADA required just the sidewalk ramps for wheelchair access. And it turned out that it didn’t just help people that were in wheelchairs, it helped. Pretty much everybody, then and I think, you know, a lot of times, we figured this out as well, that by asking people, how do you work better, and accommodating, you know, in doing the small accommodations on an individual level, it makes sense, and it makes for a more efficient workplace. So I just wanted to toss that out.

Haley Moss

I’m glad that you did because I think that honestly leading from that universal design perspective is something that we need to be doing going forward as well. So you might not need to know who is most impacted. But if we imagined and redesign things with that person in mind, or those types of marginalization in mind, we all benefit. So I think about that with not even just the sidewalks but I usually think about it with closed captions, which is when we use captions on our TV, chances are you are not deaf or hard of hearing. And that’s of course, the intended audience and who it was designed for. And think about why you use something like closed captions. Maybe you’re learning a new language, maybe you’re just very busy, maybe you’re really good with visual information. Maybe you want those extra social cues that come in there. That’s why I like closed captions because they’ll tell you if the music is really tense, really dramatic, or someone’s laughing or scoffing. So I immediately know if you’re being sarcastic because sometimes they can’t tell. So there are all sorts of different people who end up benefiting from this not just people who are deaf or hard of hearing that you have your second language learners, you have us having access to foreign language television that we might not have had before. Because we don’t speak that language. There are so many different things that come into that equation. So if we really do design our environments with more marginalized people in mind, whether it’s race, disability, ethnicity, gender, if we’re really thinking about all of these different factors, and we try to make policy and do things with people who are marginalized in mind, it ends up benefiting all of us whether or not we know it right away. And we ended up taking some of those things for granted.

Marlene Gebauer

So, Haley, we talked a few months ago with Dr. Caitlin Handron with the Ropes and Gray Insights Lab. And she disclosed to her boss that she was bipolar, and wanted to help normalize her own neuro divergence. She said that her psychiatrist was actually surprised that she would do this and worried that she was putting herself at risk by not hiding her identity as bipolar, which Dr. Handron stated was, of course, our legal right to do. You know, it seems there may be a fear of stigma for some people to disclose their neurodivergent identity and to mask their differences yet if they don’t disclose they risk losing the protections afforded to them. How do employers and employees best resolve this catch 22?

Haley Moss

It’s a mess. I don’t think there’s

Marlene Gebauer

That doesn’t give me a lot of faith…

Haley Moss

I don’t think there’s a one size fits all answer, because it kind of goes back to why people do and don’t share. And I think a lot of employees get boxed into sharing when they are having performance issues when it needs to be known because there’s no other option. And I think there is that inherent bias that makes it very difficult to share. And especially with something like bipolar disorder, which is one of the more highly stigmatized forms of neuro divergence. So I think a lot of corporations and workplaces look at neurodiversity as kind of like acceptable neurodiversity of like, autism with low support needs, ADHD, learning disabilities, the and maybe your run of the mill type, anxiety, depression that might be seasonal, it might be something that’s easily managed. They don’t think about things that are more highly stigmatized, like bipolar disorder, schizophrenia, and intellectual disability, that I think it’s really important that kind of goes back to where that universal design is, is really thinking of these folks in mind when we’re doing things. But I think with that catch 22 It’s really I understand why people mask. I also understand that it’s compounded by a variety of different factors. So especially I know for me, I am more likely to mask when I feel uncomfortable. And if my personal safety I think might be at risk. I’m aware that I am also female. I am aware that there are people who might have different forms of marginalization working against them as well. So they might be neurodivergent, they might be female, they might be queer, they might be people of color. And that also impacts their safety as well and how they’re going to be experiencing the world. So I think that we have to see that ableism is a huge part of this. So I think a lot of that, at least for employers, is unlearning a lot of their own biases. I think there’s a lot of bias. I think there’s a lot of ableism, not just in the legal profession, but in most of our society. And I think sometimes it’s very obvious. And sometimes it’s very sneaky. And sometimes it’s just so embedded in our culture that we don’t think about it. And sometimes I catch it. So even with the language that we use, there are so many different ways to kind of unpack ableism as a whole. But that’s kind of my thing is when we’re disclosing, I think it’s, why are you doing this, and if you know that you might need that protection, you feel like you might have to. And also, I think when we’re sharing our stories on our own terms, it does help and that stigma to some degree, it humanizes these issues. It humanizes these conditions that a lot of us just think of as these people that are undeserving, or moral failures, or whatever it may be. So I think that openness does end up changing things for the better, but it should be on our terms. So that’s why I’m really glad that you told me about a past guest who chose to share that not because she felt boxed in but she chose to do that. And one of the best things that people say is how can we support you? Or how can I support you? You don’t have to have all the answers. Please don’t tell me you’re sorry. For me, that’s usually the easiest thing to like, avoid doing. I don’t feel sorry for me, you shouldn’t feel sorry, either. I still have the same needs and desires and things in my life that make me happy like anybody else. Like I still have people I love. I have a job I find fulfilling. I have a roof over my head, I have all the stuff that people want in life like I’m happy. I don’t feel sorry about that.

Marlene Gebauer

So, Haley, you have written it women who are autistic often have an even harder time in the workplace than even their male counterparts. Why is that?

Haley Moss

I think it goes back to that intersectionality component. So I think especially when we think of stereotypes of certain disabilities, and neurodiversity, we often think of men, especially with autism and ADHD. Women and nonbinary people and trans people and people who are not essentially cisgender men, have that much of a harder time getting access to services, they might get diagnosed or identified later in life. There are so many different things there. And a lot of these individuals are high masking and high camouflaging. So they might be working overtime to try to act in socially acceptable ways or to try to take on a neurotypical type persona. And it’s often to our own detriment. That as much as it does maybe alleviate things like bullying or workplace harassment. It also takes its toll on our self-esteem, how we feel, our own mental health. And I think that that’s something that we have to be mindful of. I kind of do worry, especially because I know a lot of folks do get missed. And then there’s this issue that that people who are gender diverse often have a well you don’t have this lifelong history. And there are so many reasons people don’t have lifelong history. But the fact that a lot of criteria do have these eight-year-old boys in mind, and a lot of these conditions are viewed as things that happen to eight-year-old boys, and not adults. I think that makes it that much harder too.

Marlene Gebauer

nobody seems to understand that the eight-year-old boys grow up.

Haley Moss

Exactly. But everyone still thinks that ADHD is the second grader bouncing off the walls, not an adult who might have attention issues or might not be able to plan through their schedule or might fall down the rabbit hole of research.

Greg Lambert

And I know you were talking about may not have a history of this. I know when my kids were in middle school, there were no female students who were diagnosed with ADHD they were all male students. So

Haley Moss

It’s because of how they diagnosed it how it’s expected to manifest like, I know if I was speaking earlier and I didn’t have a speaking delay and wasn’t minimally speaking on top or nonspeaking for a certain period of my life. I don’t know if I would have had that same diagnosis or correct identification if to be quite honest with you. And I say that because I was a good student. I did well in school, I was quiet I respected authority. You wouldn’t have known if I was struggling with attention because I was doodling or something else you would have thought well she gets good grades.

Greg Lambert

You weren’t disruptive.

Haley Moss

I wasn’t disruptive. I was quiet. I respected authority. My grades were good. Like you wouldn’t think that was a problem child or what we think is what we consider a problem child or a bad kid or someone with an emotional disturbance or any of that types of stuff. But looking back there are times I’m like there’s something that was definitely different. I mean, I’m lucky that I had a diagnosis since I was a child. And that’s a huge privilege. And I realized why that’s a privilege at this point in my life other than getting access to services earlier. And that there are all sorts of different discrepancies and disparities across race and SES and different things as well. So I think we have to really understand that these issues are intersectional. I think that’s probably the biggest thing that sometimes gets lost as we look at neurodiversity disability in a vacuum, not that this is something that can happen to anyone. And it’s also the only minority group you can join at any point in your life is disability.

Greg Lambert

I hadn’t thought about that.

Haley Moss

If you’re lucky enough to be alive for a long time, it happens to you. Yeah, or you can be or you’ll end up becoming a caregiver or like the only thing that really separates folks is about a split second. And that’s something that I saw with a video actually that was by a Paralympian who was in a freak boating accident. And she’s like, the only thing that separated me from disability was a split second. I was like, Yeah, that sounds about right. And I think about folks who would acquire things like traumatic brain injury is really developed something like epilepsy, like it’s not something they get to choose or that they might have been born with.

Greg Lambert

Well, Haley, you didn’t just begin your work by helping explain neurodiversity and living with autism after you graduated law school, I actually went out and I’m holding it up and purchased your book, Middle School, The Stuff That Nobody Tells You About.

Haley Moss

You get to know 15 year old me

Greg Lambert

I can tell you, I was thinking about that, before I jumped on, I was like, I would not want to read anything I wrote as a 15-year-old,

Haley Moss

I still, honestly, feel that way about stuff that I wrote in college because I realized how much my opinions and my worldview have expanded. But it makes me really grateful because I realized how much I’ve grown.

Greg Lambert

So I got this book for my wife, who’s a middle school librarian. And, again, you wrote this when you were 15. And you’ve written a few more books since. What is it that compels you to write and speak on these topics as you live through them? Because you’ve, you’ve written on these for half your life?

Haley Moss

Yeah. And I think for me, it’s really just about how I want to be able to help other people. I think that there are so many barriers, there are so many things that need to be dealt with. But I think it’s really powerful, that we’re able to tell these stories. And when you’re able to tell your story on your own terms, there’s something to be said for that. But I look at it as I don’t tell my story for the sake of telling it. I don’t do it to inspire people. I do it because I genuinely want to help somebody if I want things to be more accessible and inclusive. For the next generation. I want the next group of autistic middle schoolers not to have the same barriers to access that I did. I want things to be better for everybody. And that’s honestly why I feel compelled to share other than the fact I get really geeky excited about this stuff. I just think that if something can be better for the next group of young people, then I did something right.

Marlene Gebauer

Your next book, which comes out this month is called the Young Autistic Adults Independence Handbook, who is the audience for this book, and how has your experience of entering the legal profession shaped the story you’re telling in the book?

Haley Moss

I am so excited about this book because this is the book that I wish that I had when I was a young person. Especially because we assume that independence is this very big mountain, we assume that we have to hit the top of the mountain. And the top of the mountain, especially in Disability Services, sometimes comes across as you have to be able to do everything forever by yourself. That isn’t true. And when you eventually move out, or you realize that there are things that you don’t want your parents to do for you, you realize he didn’t really get the tools to do those things. So even if it’s something like managing your money and applying for a credit card, or even registering to vote, there are all sorts of different things or keeping your house clean, which is something I struggled a lot with or trying a new food or figuring out how to prioritize when you go to the grocery store all these random life skills that don’t always get taught that it’s assumed that somehow you’re going to know and for autistic and neurodivergent people, sometimes it’s really difficult to get a handle on that. Or someone didn’t take the time to teach you how to also advocate for yourself or why that’s important. So for me, that was something I really wanted to address, is I wanted to write the guide that I wish that I had had. And also what made it fun is I got to interview a bunch of different experts and people with lived experience about what they recommended. So I got to talk about some of the messier things like grief because I know especially for young adults, it’s something that we don’t talk about. And a lot of us might lose grandparents or family members or pets and I got to talk to someone who explicitly works with autistic people on grief. And things like trying new food, which is a big source of anxiety for me. I got to talk to a psychologist who works with autistic people with food issues because it’s a big thing in our community. And I learned how to try something new. And I wanted to share that with everybody. I got so excited. Like look, there’s an actual science that makes this less scary about trying something that I’ve never had before. Because I’m so scared to try things. That’s something I’m not always proud of admitting, I’m very embarrassed about it. But it’s the thing that really does impede so much of my life. But I really did want to write this. And what helps with my legal background is answering some of the tough questions for people. So I know we have lots of issues in our community that surround law enforcement, or even things like what the ADA is, and a lot of people want this information, but they don’t get it from someone who has lived experience and professional experience at the same time. It’s one thing if someone who has professional experience tells it to us, but it’s another if you have someone who also has lived experiences has interacted with the legal system in some way, shape, or form, even if it’s from our side and not on the side of a plaintiff or the side of someone who was an accused or, or a witness that it’s really important that we get those perspectives. So then folks know kind of what’s out there, too. I just want people to feel empowered, I want them to feel that the live independence they’ve been sold isn’t necessarily all there is. So if there are things that you do need help with, that’s okay, too. And know how to ask for support. Because I think as a young person, that’s the thing that I didn’t quite get that I was allowed to ask for things that I didn’t know that I was allowed to ask for things that weren’t being offered, kind of even thinking about law school, and I’d just get offered extra time or college when I got offered extra time. And that’s not what I needed. I needed a note-taker, but I didn’t know that. Because I didn’t know I would write down everything because I had no idea it was important. And then I didn’t end up listening because I didn’t know it was important.

Greg Lambert

I felt like I did the same thing.

Haley Moss

I would have benefited so much from having someone who was really good at taking notes who was able to focus and do that, like that would have been a game-changer.

Marlene Gebauer

I didn’t even know you could get that

Haley Moss

yeah, you can actually get a note-taker you can get note-taking services, or someone is required from your class to be able to share notes with you, as an accommodation that you’re actually allowed to get that. But and some professors know that that’s a thing. And I asked at the beginning of the term about a note-taker, but I didn’t know that was for me, I thought that was people who had reading disabilities. So the way that we look at a lot of these solutions kind of is very much a binary of Oh, you have this is what we’re going to offer you.

Greg Lambert

Oh, this is fascinating. Haley Moss. So we really appreciate you taking the time to talk with us today.

Marlene Gebauer

Yeah, Haley, thank you so much. This has been fantastic.

Haley Moss

Thank You.