The Geek in Review Ep. 100 – Jennifer Bluestein on Stepping It Up: A Guide for Mid-Level Law Firm Associates

Welcome to the 100th episode of The Geek in Review. We hope you’ve enjoyed listening to the podcast as much as we’ve had in making it.

We talk with Jennifer Bluestein, Chief Talent and HR Officer for Perkins Coie in part one of a two-part interview. Jennifer’s new book, Stepping It Up: A Guide for Mid-Level Law Firm Associates helps associates, partners, HR, and professional development personnel better understand the needs of those second to sixth-year associates as they move from learning how to practice law to learning how to practice law, while managing up and down the associate ladder. In part one, we discuss the basic challenges of a mid-level when it comes to communication skills, and knowing when to delegate, and when not to delegate. We also cover the issues with understanding partner evaluations of associates and what the difference is between a coaching moment, and what is a performance issue.

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Information Inspirations

The American Bar Association reports that being a judge can be stressful.

If you’re looking for a great curated newsletter on all the mergers and other happenings in the legal tech industry, Nate’s News, curated by Nate Schorr, may be just what you are looking for.

AI bias is something we’ve all heard about. Recently the bias appeared in how the COVID vaccine is being distributed. At least that was how it was reported. Karen Hao from MIT Tech Review thinks it may be more of a people problem than an Algorithm/AI issue.

And speaking of AI, Sheppard Mullins is the first law firm to sign the EqualAI pledge, with the hope of reducing AI bias in the practice of law.

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Transcript

Marlene Gebauer: Welcome to the Geek in Review. The podcast focused on innovative and creative ideas in the legal industry. I’m Marlene Gebauer.

Greg Lambert: And I’m Greg Lambert.

Marlene Gebauer: Well, Greg, I hope you had a restful and festive holiday break. I needed a snow fix. So I traveled to the great state of New Jersey to catch the last little bit that they had from their big storm. There was enough to throw a few snowballs, and that was enough. Yeah,

Greg Lambert: yeah, that’s more than I really want.

Marlene Gebauer: I’ve been seesawing back and forth about feeling inspired and hopeful. And then feeling anxious, and maybe a little angry. I’m not really sure. It’s, it’s, it’s a really odd feeling. You know, it’s, it’s about sort of wanting to accomplish things and not being in a position to do any of that. And about wanting, what was normal before. And, you know, knowing that ain’t ever gonna happen again.

Greg Lambert: Well, you know, a little bit of help, hopefully, is that this is our 100th episode, Marlene. So I hope that gives you just a little bit of hope and inspiration.

Marlene Gebauer: Well, I don’t feel a day over 30.

Greg Lambert: And you don’t look that either.

Marlene Gebauer: Thank you, Greg.

Greg Lambert: So we have the first of our two-part interview with Perkins Coie Chief Talent and HR officer, Jennifer Bluestein. As we talked to her about her second book on law firm associates, this time focused on the mid-level associates.

Marlene Gebauer: We had a very good discussion with Jen. And in fact, our 30-minute block of time turned into an hour of great content. Therefore, we decided to break it into two parts. And we both think everyone will enjoy and learn from the discussion. Be sure to stick around for that. But now let’s get to this week’s information inspirations.

Marlene Gebauer: The 2020 Journal of the Professional Lawyer as opposed to their evil sister publication, the Journal of the Unprofessional Lawyer.

Greg Lambert: That’s that that would be us. Yeah,

Marlene Gebauer: I guess. So. Anyway, the Journal of the professional lawyer has released a report on judicial stress. And you know what, Greg? Huh. It turns out judges get stressed like the rest of us go figure.

Greg Lambert: I would not have thought it

Marlene Gebauer: I know. Now, I have to take issue with the ABAs reporting of this is a “comprehensive survey.” Now 1000 judges responded, which, you know, sounds like a lot, except the ABA also notes that there are 18,000 judges in the United States. So the result isn’t statistically significant. Also, responders were primarily state and local judges. Now, you know, I don’t want to suggest the judges any judges aren’t suffering from stress. And then a more open discussion should be had about that. But this is a little like putting lipstick on a pig.

Marlene Gebauer: It is… all right, so my next inspiration, I’m hoping that you can cue up some wedding music.

Unknown Speaker

There you go. That’s excellent.

Marlene Gebauer: That’s perfect. Cuz the bells are ringing, company marriages and funding news is in the news. And they have some ramifications for all of us. So I was introduced to Nate’s News, a curated newsletter on legal tech published by Nate Schorr, who’s an associate at the Legal Tech Fund. And Toby Brown, our friend, introduced me to this. Now, Nate’s Schorr in his newsletter put together a list of Q4 funding info. There are many so that’s really good for legal tech in general. So some of the highlights Brightflag, a legal spend management and billing platform raised 28 million led by One Peak partners, fast case and case maker to legal research platforms have merged. So at Walters from fast case did not tip us off on this one. Bummer.

Greg Lambert: No, he didn’t. He didn’t.

Marlene Gebauer: But the good news is that all state bar associations will be supported by one company and research platform. All right, my next one Litera, which develops contract and transactional management software acquired Foundation Software group, which is a platform for centralizing law firm knowledge. And this is a super interesting one, because let’s face it, because Litera and we’ve had folks from Litera on the program provides drafting and transactional management and Foundation offers and intelligence platforms. So you have two lifecycle products in one. And the intelligence you could gather from all those agreements might be pretty amazing. And apply analytics on top of that, and oh the places you will go. DISCO an E-discovery platform raise 40 million in debt financing from Comerica. So disco is not dead! Long live disco!! Nate has some other cool news along with books he’s reading and other sorts of stuff. So if you want to hear more sign up for the newsletter.

Greg Lambert: So Arlene, we, you know, we talk a lot about AI and algorithmic bias on the show. And I’ve run across a couple of interesting discussions this week on that topic. You know, traditionally we talk about things like racial bias that are built into algorithms. But some instances are popping up around the shipment and distribution of the COVID vaccines. So, Karen Hao, from MIT Technology Review, wrote about the problem with the Stanford Medical Center’s vaccination protocols. And you may have heard about this one, and that was the protocols that somehow or another, allowed the hospital administrators and doctors who were working from home to get the vaccine while leaving some of the frontline doctors and patient-facing employees off that list. So yeah, it was not a good situation. Hao he mentions that there’s this tendency to blame the algorithms for the defective processes, when in fact, it’s really a people problem. She has a great interview with someone we both like, Molly Wood.

Marlene Gebauer: Love Molly Wood!

Greg Lambert: On Molly’s Marketplace Tech, about this deflecting game of blaming the algorithms when it’s really not the algorithms that are the problem. So one other quick note on AI and bias. This came across my desk this week, and that Sheppard Mullin signed the equal AI pledge to help reduce bias and artificial intelligence. And I believe this is the first law firm to make this type of pledge, Ali Shahidi, who you may know, Marlene.

Marlene Gebauer: I do.

Greg Lambert: He’s the firm’s Chief Innovation and Client Solutions officer said that their reason for signing the pledge was so that as law firms continue to incorporate advanced technologies such as machine learning, natural language processing, into the practice of law, the need for ensuring the AI does not contribute to bias is critically important to those that Sheppard Mullin and to their clients, and Shahidi hopes that the law firms and the corporate legal departments will join them in battling this often unseen effect of bias in AI. So it’s really interesting that a law firm would sign on to this pledge. So I’m hoping to learn more.

Marlene Gebauer: Yeah, I would like to learn more too, because, you know, I’m listening to this. And this sounds wonderful, but my I’m also questioning it’s like, how, how do firms help reduce bias in AI? You know, I mean, what

Greg Lambert: How do we get how do we see inside the black box?

Marlene Gebauer: Yeah, what’s what’s our role, you know, as as, as law firms and legal organization, what’s, you know, what’s our role in this? So yeah, that’s, that’s, that’s really interesting news.

Greg Lambert: And that wraps up this week’s information, inspirations.

Greg Lambert: Today’s guest is the author of two fantastic books dealing with law firm associates. And she has split the associates really into three groups, the first years, the mid-levels, and then the senior associates. And her most recent book deals with those mid-levels and the balance that they have to achieve between learning and leading.

Interview

Marlene Gebauer: A great deal of focus is centered around associate success lately. How will associates succeed when they cannot connect with partners, peers or other colleagues like they used to? Today’s guest, Jennifer Bluestein, Chief talent and HR officer at Perkins Coie has a new book out entitled, Stepping It Up: A Guide for Mid-level Law Firm Associates that offer some advice for, you guessed it, mid-level associates. Welcome to the podcast, Jennifer.

Jennifer Bluestein: Thanks for having me. I appreciate it.

Marlene Gebauer: You’re a busy professional with a high profile role. Why did you take the responsibility of writing this book?

Jennifer Bluestein: I asked myself that all the time. Especially when I was trying to get it done. So PLI approached me. So I’d love to take credit for having this bold idea. But actually, they approached me because they saw a need in the marketplace for a first-year book. So that was the first book that we did. And that was two years ago. And so once that was published, and we got such great feedback, and I was actually at a conference, and I was speaking about it, and PLI was promoting the book. And so many people were coming up saying, This is so helpful. This is really guiding our training. And one law firm actually told me that they were using each chapter as the new topic in their first-year orientation. So people started Yeah, so people started asking me, they’re like, Are there going to be more? And I, my editor was there and I just turned her and she said, I was wondering, when would be too soon to ask you? And I said, Yeah, actually, I think there should be more because where we really lose people is mid-level. So that seemed the natural next step.

Marlene Gebauer: Just so we have some clarity, what do you define in the book as a mid level associate?

Marlene Gebauer: So under the NALP standards, because they do the research on associates, it’s typically third through fifth year. But more and more as the time period to promotion gets lengthened. I think it’s more like third to sixth year. So it’s flexible.

Marlene Gebauer: And that’s that’s typically when they either get on the partnership track or they go in house somewhere. It’s it’s kind of

Marlene Gebauer: or do something completely different, like I did.

Marlene Gebauer: So Jen, you noted that often Junior associates do very well. But when they move into their middle years, they often flounder. So what are you seeing as some of the basic challenges of those mid-level associates?

Marlene Gebauer: What we would typically see and it varies sometimes I’ll go years without hearing that feedback or seeing at all. But the reason why we call the book Stepping It Up, is you see this expectation from partners for associates to start taking over the matter taking over the deal. And saying, Okay, this is the next step. And I’m gonna go ahead and do that. And so that’s why we call it Stepping It Up because partners assume that associates know to do that. And instead, associates who aren’t aware of that, or don’t think of it or don’t naturally start doing that. Instead, they say, Okay, I’m going to wait for the next instruction. And that’s where the disconnect occurs, because associates are behaving just as they always did. But their feedback is not as positive. And partners are sitting there writing their reviews out of their associated saying, Now this year, they really need to step it up. And the associate sits there in the evaluation meeting saying, what does that mean?

Marlene Gebauer: So this book explains it. Interesting, is it? Is it one of those situations where I always say that you should never raise an issue for the first time during the evaluation? Are you finding that partners are raising that issue for the first time in the evaluation? Or are they trying to help them throughout the year? And either there’s a disconnect in the communication or there’s not enough professional development training? How are the firm’s working to address these challenges?

Marlene Gebauer: It sounds like they can’t sort of put words around what they mean, you know, they say stepping it up. But well, you know, what exactly does that mean?

Greg Lambert: Like, try harder.

Marlene Gebauer: Yeah.

Marlene Gebauer: Right. Exactly. Exactly. And so, what we have seen at law firms, and what we talked about at professional development conferences and write about in articles, is the need to train partners on how to give specific, measurable, actionable, timely feedback.

Marlene Gebauer: Oh, analytics!

Jennifer Bluestein: Yeah, we teach, we teach specifics, we teach the smart model or both goal-setting and feedback. And what we have found is, and this is the funny part, law firm partners or just senior associates even are very good, especially if they’re litigators, at standing their ground and advocating for their clients and being very direct when it comes to the other side, but in the work environment where they are charged with mentoring and developing someone, and they want this person to stay, they’re afraid to give that constructive feedback because they’re afraid. And this is the part that associates I think, don’t appreciate. They’re afraid the associates will stop taking work from them. Because most of these firms have some kind of free-market system, especially for mid-levels and above. And so an associate who doesn’t like how they’re getting feedback, or how they’re spoken to, by a partner can very well just say, Oh, I’m busy, and then go get the next deal from somebody else. So what we have is this, especially where we have very competitive markets, as we do now for mid-levels. And so partners are afraid of the associates. Not always. So more and more, what we’re doing is we’re teaching partners, not just how to give that specific feedback, but why it’s so important to associates and their development. And so we’re moving over a period of many years from this black box system where associates don’t even get to see their feedback. So I, when I was a first-year associate, I would get a review. And it was a three-sentence paragraph. I didn’t get to see anything anybody had written about me. And they actually cut it out from a piece of paper. So you can hear the paper wrinkling, but it actually cut it and I get this little snippet of a piece of paper. I don’t even get the full paper, like they didn’t have enough money for a whole piece of paper. For me.

Marlene Gebauer: It’s like, here’s your snippet review.

Greg Lambert: It’s like a clipping service.

Marlene Gebauer: Yeah, it was basically a clipping service. And so the partners that I worked with, all got together, and two partners, one from the committee, and one that I worked with, or the practice group had, I don’t remember, but we’d sit down for half an hour, and they’d hand me my little paragraph, my little snippet. And it would say, you know, Jennifer had a good year, or, you know, Jennifer, and a terribly, or whatever, Jennifer needs to work on writing persuasively, or whatever it was. And I’d sit there and I’d say, That’s it? My whole year? That’s, that’s what I get? And so what we have done since then, and that was, let’s just say, a different century. But what we’ve worked on with partners is explaining that associates can handle the truth. No, it’s like the Jack Nicholson line, you can handle the truth. So we have to teach partners, not all the time, but often, associates can handle the truth. They want the specifics, because they actually want to improve, they want to show that they can do it. And so what we’re really talking about is changing the dialogue so that they’re having those conversations on an ongoing basis. So yes, Greg, you’re right, it shouldn’t come as a surprise. But what still happens is even if they’ve had conversations, they come into their review, and that issue or two has taken on a bigger sense of importance. And they’re like, well, yeah, I missed the state law ruling. But that didn’t seem like a very big deal. Why is it all over my review? So now it’s more a question all these years later, helping bridge the gap to help people understand this is a blip, and it’s a coaching moment, versus this is a performance problem. So now we’re really getting associates to appreciate what’s important. And it’s all-important. But what I hear from associates now, especially mid-levels, I hear things like, I only hear about the things I screw up, I don’t hear about all the things I’ve done really well. And I say, look, you do things really well. And that isn’t forgotten. But at the same time, if 10% of the time you have missed something or messed something up, then they don’t trust you on anything else, even if it is 100% right. The remaining 90% of the time.

Marlene Gebauer: It is in question. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. So. So, you know, let’s talk about delegation shall we?

Jennifer Bluestein: my favorite topic.

Marlene Gebauer: Yes, it’s like it is one of the hardest things for anyone really to master when they move into more of a managerial role. And that’s what mid-levels are moving into, right? They’re taking responsibility for the proper work process and end result rather than just for discrete projects. So what do you recommend when they’re moving from peer to supervisor status?

Jennifer Bluestein: So when they move from that more junior role to supervisory status, there are a lot of different things for them to think about. But I think the first thing is for them to understand what they have authority to delegate and what they do not. So for example, sometimes their first delegation, other than to an assistant, is to delegate to a paralegal. And so they need to make sure that they have the approval to do so. And if they’re delegating to a more junior associate, it’s especially true because there are so many clients sensitivities now where clients don’t want to see more than X number Are people on their bill, regardless of their role. Or what the rate is or anything like that. So first, it’s really about authority. And then I think it’s about going through the thought process of, Okay, I know I shouldn’t do at all, what makes sense to delegate? And how do I give the big picture to whoever I’m delegating to? So in order to do the higher-level work, they have to delegate. But at the same time, they have to think about all the obstacles and one of those obstacles is that perfectionism, that sense of loss of control. The book talks about different models for delegation in terms of before how to think about what to delegate. So once you know you have the authority, it’s thinking about the mix of complexity, and importance. And so the things that you want to delegate are the lower importance, lower complexity, those are the first things that a more junior person is going to be thinking about delegating, and the things that they don’t want to delegate, or the highly complex, highly important things.

Marlene Gebauer: What would be some examples, you know, in terms of like, you know, these are these, these might be things you delegate, these might be things that you kind of keep on your plate?

Marlene Gebauer: Sure. So, I mean, one is just kind of the basic things, I think, is creating, and then finalizing a table, an index of authorities or table of contents for a large brief or document. I mean those are the the easy things, that people really get hung up on, keeping it to themselves, especially when it’s after hours. And a lot of associates at large firms don’t even realize that we have centralized word processing and centralized resources for site checking, document checking, I mean, there is now software that will look and see if your defined terms. And I learned this from Marlene, so she’s, she’s gonna laugh, because we worked on this project years ago to roll it out to associates, not just to the legal secretaries. But you don’t have to spend six hours looking at a document to see if you have used all of your defined terms. There are software that can do that. And your assistant can probably run that software or your shared services word processing department can probably run that software. So that’s an example of something you really shouldn’t be spending and you shouldn’t bill your clients for that either. On the other hand, are going through a letter of intent and making sure that every item is covered and covered accurately. That’s something I wouldn’t delegate. And then on the complexity, it could be, you know, how financing is structured. The other thing if you’re thinking about litigators is sometimes if you have a really extensive motion, let’s say it’s a brief for summary judgment. And it has three strong arguments. And because the timeframes, it’s farmed out to different, more junior associates. It’s then the responsibility of the associate putting it together to say, I’m going to read this through with a clear eye, thinking about the voice and the tone so that it reads like one person wrote it that’s nuanced and complex. And that’s not something you’re going to give to a first or second-year associate, even though it sounds like that could be fairly simple. Especially if you’re at an appeals court level or, or something like that. You really want to make sure that you’re owning that, and you’re responsible for everything being perfect, and that the nuances are right.

Marlene Gebauer: Yeah, like you had a really good example, I remember where Oh, actually was your example, where someone had, you know, was given instructions to do something and didn’t check the tabs. Right. And,

Jennifer Bluestein: Yes, that was me.

Marlene Gebauer: That was you. That was you. And then the senior associate also recognized, you know, then this was sort of the mid-level person saying, Yeah, I should have also been more clear about sort of what to do, because you were a junior person at the time. And I thought that was a really interesting example of what you’re talking about, of kind of this nuance about how to, you know, how you understand what it is that needs to be done. And it all sort of hinges on how people interact with one another, and how the delegation goes.

Jennifer Bluestein: Right. And that was my personal example from being a first-year associate. And I did exactly what she told me, but I didn’t think about the other aspect. And it was like, correct. It was like checking the table of the exhibits. But I didn’t check to make sure that the exhibit labels match the actual exhibits, or you know, something like that, but I just didn’t think to do because I thought that had been done. And when she came back, it might have even been our honeymoon. And we realized the error. We both kind of, you know, did the Uh Oh, and she assumed that I would do it and I assumed it already been done. And we learned a lot from that.

Marlene Gebauer: Well, you know, in addition to being in a quasi management role and being able to do delegate work to junior associates and other staff. These mid-levels also have the pleasure, shall we say, of having to manage up to senior associates and partners. And you had wrote in the book itself, that these are the Forgotten middle children of the law firm. And as a middle child, myself, I completely relate to that. So, you know, this is their first chance to really take on a role as a leader and advocate for others, and even has some serious interaction with clients in a substantial way. So what are some of the suggestions you have for these mid-level associates when it comes to handling these new responsibilities?

Jennifer Bluestein: Well, I think just overall, if you look at the book, and even if you just look at the chapter outline, the trend is really clear. The focus is delegation and communication. Those two skills, we talk about allyship and diversity, we talk about whether you want to go and have something, there are other topics that we address. But the two topics that I think we address from so many different angles is this issue of communication. And, you know, we talked about when and how to update clients, that’s one example. And that, I think, is the difference showing that judgment asking the right question. So you work with so many different people, as a mid-level, in a large law firm, there are some people who will be completely siloed, and will only work for one or two partners and a small practice. But I think that’s the vast minority. And for most people, you just don’t know, there are some people that there are certain phrases that they hate putting in a document. There, it’s too legalese. And there are other people who will put that in every single document. And I remember having that issue. And your job as a first-year maybe is to just realize it and to kind of attune yourself to that difference. But boy is a mid-level. Not only should you know what those nuances are, but you have to explain it to the junior associates you’re working with also, that you’re the translator in some ways. And the mid-levels really become I think key to the deal, because they’re translating the desire of the clients. The first years might not depending on the size of a dealer, a matter of the first year is might not be on those client calls at all. I rarely was. But the mid-level, they’re the ones taking notes on the call. And then they’re kind of translating it back to the first years. And they’re going back to the senior associates or the partners, depending on how it’s staffed, saying, mmm not sure about this, or I know we advise on this approach, but I’m not sure that’s going to work because of A, B and C. So if you look at who’s the engine that really makes it hum, that’s the mid-level.

Marlene Gebauer: Jen, you devote a couple chapters to communication as a mid-level associate, which really highlights its importance. Greg and I often say that all problems are communication problems. How does a mid levels communication style need to change?

Jennifer Bluestein: Well, obviously, it depends on what their starting point is, I would just say, I would just say, agility is the number one word that I would think of to advise a mid-level on successful communication. Because you want to make sure that your word choices reflect understanding and client service and confidence, as opposed to overconfidence, or lack of knowledge, or defensiveness. And everything around communication, I think is what we call a growth opportunity. And it’s highly subjective. And we all have a lot of assumptions that we make in our communication. And so understanding your own assumption, when you’re communicating is always going to be really helpful. So going back to that example, of the document that the exhibits weren’t properly attached or labeled, or, you know, again, this was like 1997, I can’t even remember. But going back to that example, and thinking to yourself, what assumptions am I making? What questions am I not asking? And thinking about how you want people to perceive you. At the same time. I think those are the critical elements of effective communication as a middle level because you are teaching and advising those more junior and you are learning and being advised by those more senior but at the same time, all mentoring should be mutable for to be really effective. You should be learning from everyone and teaching them at the same time.

Marlene Gebauer: Yeah, it’s a tough balance, I think, to find I can see where we’re communication has got to be a real focus. You had one chapter where it had a really interesting tip that I thought I wanted you to share with us. It’s it’s called the fortune cookie rule, and how it applies to good communication.

Jennifer Bluestein: Okay. And that comes from Rachael Bosch’s chapter on communication, and she is excellent if you ever get a chance to see her speak or bring her and she’s really, she’s really an effective communicator. So she talks about the game that it’s usually teenagers. And, you know, like my 13-year-old, he’s not 13 anymore, but at the time when he was 13.

Marlene Gebauer: Or us.

Jennifer Bluestein: Yeah, or us when we’re feeling silly. And you think about how you open a fortune cookie, and you add your little personal message to make it a little more salacious, right. So think about tacking on your own statement, as if it’s a fortune cookie when you are sharing a communication, especially when you’re thinking about delegating to people or having a team meeting or check-in. If you’re giving feedback. And you say, I want to talk about how we can have more effective and ongoing communication. You think about your value behind it or your purpose behind it are your value at work. So it could be because I’m a good leader as a more senior associate. And so you think about your values or so maybe it’s talking about something with true transparency, you’re revealing, it could be a personal issue, it could be a client driver, and you want to be really open about what’s going on behind the scenes. And so you’re saying, I want to approach this deal with some good timeframes in mind, because we really do want to get this close before the holidays without ruining our Christmas because my kids will kill me. You’re thinking because I am a family-oriented attorney and a family-oriented boss to those I’m supervising. Rather than we need to work 24-7 to get this done by December 20. Without saying why. And so then you just come across as dictatorial. But that’s the idea. Behind that fortune cookie rule is making sure that anything you say aligns with your values.

Greg Lambert: I like that.

Marlene Gebauer: Well, I think that’s wise advice.

Outro:

Marlene Gebauer: We always go back to the fact that all problems are communication problems. And the process for mid-level associates to step up is not different. Partners may not be able to put what they want into words to convey that they want mid-levels to take more ownership and oversight of work product of a client or act as a coach to those more junior or maybe just some assume associates will inherently know to become more proactive on their own. But you know, business cultures vary on what’s appropriate. Having a plan and guidance on what success looks like for mid-levels can make a whole lot of difference in how they progress in their career trajectory.

Greg Lambert: Yeah, and I was, I was really intrigued with the part where she mentioned that the partners are afraid of the associates because they can tell them they are busy and then go get work from another partner if they don’t like their style. So

Marlene Gebauer: I’ve never heard that before. So

Greg Lambert: And thinking about it, I think that’s probably true. I mean, it’s, it’s not something I think is true in the fact that partners should be afraid of them. But I think there’s this perception that if I’m not careful, they’ll just go get work somewhere else.

Marlene Gebauer: Yeah. Yeah. It’s It’s interesting. I mean, I just I generally hear it more the other way around that, you know, we need to do good work in order to get work. So it’s, it’s, you know, it is nice to know that there’s a lot of work out there and that there’s there’s more choice involved for the associates.

Greg Lambert: So once again, thanks to the Jennifer Bluestein for speaking with us. This was just part one. There’s more interesting information coming in part two for next week. So stay tuned.

Marlene Gebauer: And before we go, we want to remind listeners to take the time to subscribe on Apple podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts, read and review as well. If you have comments about today’s show, or suggestions for a future show, you can reach us on Twitter at @gebauerm or at @glambert or you can call the Geek in Review hotline at 713-487-7270 or email us at geekinreviewpodcast@gmail.com And as always, the music you hear is from Jerry David DeCicca Thanks, Jerry.

Greg Lambert: Thanks, Jerry. All right. I’ll talk to you later Marlene.

Marlene Gebauer: Bye bye